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Abstammung der heutigen Griechen mit den Antiken Hellenen zweifelhaft

Erstellt von Guerrier, 31.10.2014, 23:20 Uhr · 281 Antworten · 22.464 Aufrufe

  1. #51
    Avatar von Heraclius

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    Zitat Zitat von Taudan Beitrag anzeigen

    Wikipedia was?

    Wer sagt dass es nicht belegt ist?
    Etwa die verschieden Foren,Blogs?
    Ich poste hier die Meinung von einem sehr bekannten Illyrologen/Albanologen und trotzdem kommt ihr mit dem gleichen Mist den ihr irgendwo im Internet gelesen habt.Ihr fordert Quellen und wenn man eine postet die euch nicht gefällt ignoriert ihr sie enfach und glaubt weiter an das was ihr glauben wollt.Ihr kommt mit genetischen Tests die belegen sollen dass die Hellenen Hellenen geblieben sind.Soll ich euch was erzählen?Es gibt auch Tests die angeblich belegen das die Albaner die direkten Nachfahren der Illyrer sind.Ja und?Diese Tests sind bullshit und ich schenke ihnen keinen Glauben.Ist ja wirklich lächerlich wie ihr so tut als hättet ihr eine Ahnung über die albanische Geschichte/Kultur.Nichtmal albanisch könnt ihr aber uns hier zu erzählen dass wir nicht wissen woher wir kamen,hahaha,lustig.




    Dein Spezi machte hier tageweise Threads auf um den Griechen ihre 4'000-jährige Geschichte abzusprechen. Da musst du doch nicht gleich Sauer werden wenn man sich daraufhin bissl "wehrt".

    Heraclius

  2. #52
    Avatar von Taudan

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    Zitat Zitat von Heraclius Beitrag anzeigen
    Dein Spezi machte hier tageweise Threads auf um den Griechen ihre 4'000-jährige Geschichte abzusprechen. Da musst du doch nicht gleich Sauer werden wenn man sich daraufhin bissl "wehrt".

    Heraclius
    Ihr könnt euch auch "wehren",ist kein Problem aber dafür müsst ihr nicht noch die Albaner miteinbeziehen.Wenn einige von euch das machen solltet ihr auch eine "Verteidigung" erwarten.

  3. #53
    Avatar von Heraclius

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    Zitat Zitat von Taudan Beitrag anzeigen
    Ihr könnt euch auch "wehren",ist kein Problem aber dafür müsst ihr nicht noch die Albaner miteinbeziehen.Wenn einige von euch das machen solltet ihr auch eine "Verteidigung" erwarten.



    OK gut, Match ist eröffnet um zu eruieren, wer von uns zwei antiker ist. Am Schluss gewinnt Zoranos, der antike Makedone.

    Heraclius

  4. #54
    Avatar von Taudan

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    Zitat Zitat von Heraclius Beitrag anzeigen
    OK gut, Match ist eröffnet um zu eruieren, wer von uns zwei antiker ist. Am Schluss gewinnt Zoranos, der antike Makedone.

    Heraclius
    Was den antiken Makedonen angeht halte ich meine Argumente schon bereit.Er kann nur verlieren.

  5. #55
    Avatar von Poliorketes

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    Zitat Zitat von Taudan Beitrag anzeigen
    Was für eine coole Uni.Da kann man albanisch unter Balkan Group finden. Und auch da wurde kaum was geschrieben.Zeigt nur wie viel sie sich überhaupt mit dieser Sprache beschäftigen. Man muss wissen dass sich die meisten Unis mit der hellenischen und römischen Geschichte am meisten befassen und kaum jemand mit der illyrischen oder albanischen. Vielleicht gibt es Unis die sich auch damit befassen aber wenn ich ehrlich bin interessiert mich das nicht weil es einzelne Personen bzw Historiker, die spezialisiert sind für die Illyrologie/Albanologie, gibt und viele ihrer Werke die die illyrisch-albanische Kontinuität belegen. Es ist wahr dass es weniger Fakten gibt als bei den Hellenen aber trotzdem.Das Problem ist dass man die Sprache der Illyrer nicht kennt und es deswegen schwierig ist eine sprachliche Kontinuität darzustellen aber die Sprache ist nicht die einzige historische Quelle.Das scheint ihr Griechen hier nicht zu verstehen bzw wollt es nicht verstehen.
    Das ist kein blödsinn von der uni mit der balkan gruppe. Das balkanindogermanische ist ein gängiger begriff in der linguistik es ist ein versuch die sprachen zusammenzufassen die keiner grösseren gruppe innerhalb des indogermanischen angehören (wie zum beispiel slawisch, germanisch, romanisch usw.) In dieser subgruppe wird versucht einen gemeinsamen vorläufier dieser sprachen zu finden. Aber wie gesagt es auch nur eine theorie und nicht bewiesen .

    Die uni sagt übrigens auch nur das was die albanologen sagen.

    Balkanindogermanisch ? Wikipedia Alle Albanologen sehen das Albanische als zur Balkangruppe der indogermanischen Sprachen gehörig an.[3] Die genauen Beziehungen sowohl zum kaum bekannten Illyrischen als auch zum Thrakischen bleiben jedoch weiterhin Gegenstand der Forschung.

    Balkanindogermanisch ? Wikipedia Als Balkanindogermanisch wird in der indogermanistischen Forschung die – vermutete – gemeinsame Vorstufe des Griechischen, Phrygischen und Armenischen bezeichnet; meistens wird auch das Albanische auf diesen Zweig der indogermanischen Sprachen zurückgeführt.[1][2] In einem weiteren Sinne werden alle auf dem Balkan heute oder früher gesprochenen Sprachen indogermanischer Herkunft als „Balkanindogermanisch“ bezeichnet, ohne Rücksicht auf die genaue Herkunft der jeweiligen – oft nur fragmentarisch überlieferten – Sprachen.

  6. #56
    Avatar von Poliorketes

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    Zitat Zitat von Guerrier Beitrag anzeigen
    Postest hier links von Foren wo steht das Albaner aus dem Kaukasus kamen. So viel zur Glaubwürdigkeit dieser Seite. Zur Haplogruppe Y-DNA J2, laut untersuchungen in der Ägäis, die weitgehend von den Völkerwanderungen verschont blieb wurde bei diesen nicht die Y-DNA J2 diagnostiziert. []Greeks Ich verstehe auch nicht wieso hier von den Griechischen foristen das Augenmerk so sehr auf Genetik gelegt wird, mich jedoch im gleichen Satz als Rassisten abstempeln.
    Dafür das du dich nicht für genetik interessierst scheinst du ja gerne deine eigenen links die von genetik handeln zu manipulieren. Nicht nur das du das "Myth" in der überschrift im link gelöscht hast (damit es einen völlig anderen sinn ergibt als der der tatsächlich dort steht) in deinem eigenen link ist auch die rede von allen griechen (und nicht nur von einzelnen regionen in der ägäis wie du uns weismachen willst) das sie eine genetische kontinuität zur antike und weit darüber hinaus haben. Da du ja selbst die überschrift gefakt hast werde ich den rest oben bei dir auch mal weglassen da ja dein eigener link was völlig anderes sagt als das was du hier schreibst.

    Hier das wesentliche aus deinem eigenen link oben der @de la grecos link eigentlich nur bestätigt.(kannst du bauer eigentlich kein englisch oder bist einfach nur zu dumm um den inhalt deines eigenen links zu verstehen?)

    ""In the "The History and Geography of Human Genes" Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza [47] grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 88 to 120 loci (FIG. 22, FIG. 23, FIG. 24). Furthermore in this analysis of Europeans based on 88 genes, Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, and Piazza show that Sardinians and the Lapps of Finland form extreme outlier groups among Europeans. Greeks, Basques, and Finns are also outliers among the Europeans. They explain that in this case outliers implies that all the other European populations are related to these peoples which form the borders of the genetic structure in Europe (FIG. 24). They also clearly state that Greeks are some of the earliest contributors of genetic material to the rest of the Europeans as they are one of the oldest populations in Europe [54].""

  7. #57
    Avatar von De_La_GreCo

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    Zitat Zitat von Palaiologos XI Beitrag anzeigen
    Dafür das du dich nicht für genetik interessierst scheinst du ja gerne deine eigenen links die von genetik handeln zu manipulieren. Nicht nur das du das "Myth" in der überschrift im link gelöscht hast (damit es einen völlig anderen sinn ergibt als der der tatsächlich dort steht) in deinem eigenen link ist auch die rede von allen griechen (und nicht nur von einzelnen regionen in der ägäis wie du uns weismachen willst) das sie eine genetische kontinuität zur antike und weit darüber hinaus haben. Da du ja selbst die überschrift gefakt hast werde ich den rest oben bei dir auch mal weglassen da ja dein eigener link was völlig anderes sagt als das was du hier schreibst.

    Hier das wesentliche aus deinem eigenen link oben der @de la grecos link eigentlich nur bestätigt.(kannst du bauer eigentlich kein englisch oder bist einfach nur zu dumm um den inhalt deines eigenen links zu verstehen?)

    ""In the "The History and Geography of Human Genes" Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza [47] grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 88 to 120 loci (FIG. 22, FIG. 23, FIG. 24). Furthermore in this analysis of Europeans based on 88 genes, Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, and Piazza show that Sardinians and the Lapps of Finland form extreme outlier groups among Europeans. Greeks, Basques, and Finns are also outliers among the Europeans. They explain that in this case outliers implies that all the other European populations are related to these peoples which form the borders of the genetic structure in Europe (FIG. 24). They also clearly state that Greeks are some of the earliest contributors of genetic material to the rest of the Europeans as they are one of the oldest populations in Europe [54].""
    daemliches propaganda arschloch. Sag doch der begeht hier rufmord. Sein eigenrr link bestaetigt mein link. Krieg mal.deine hellenophobie im griff

  8. #58

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    Zitat Zitat von De_La_GreCo Beitrag anzeigen
    daemliches propaganda arschloch. Sag doch der begeht hier rufmord. Sein eigenrr link bestaetigt mein link. Krieg mal.deine hellenophobie im griff

    Kocum , nicht das sich naher rausstellt dass ich dein Großcousin dritten Grades bin

  9. #59
    Avatar von De_La_GreCo

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    Zitat Zitat von Hamburg1711 Beitrag anzeigen
    Kocum , nicht das sich naher rausstellt dass ich dein Großcousin dritten Grades bin

    Muss ja nicht heißen das ich falsch lag arkadas. Hatte einige Verwandte die kamen aus der heutigen Türkei

  10. #60
    Guerrier
    @De la Greco

    @Palaiologos XI

    Pass auf ma auf du Depp, wenn ihr zu unfaehig seid die Quellen durchzulesen die ich hier poste bezueglich der Abstsmmung ist es nicht mein Problem. Wenn ihr dann immernoch auf das gleiche Argument besteht, ihr aber die Quellen der gegenseite nicht mal durchliesst die das gegenteil beweisen, ist es nicht mein Problem. Die heutige griechische Sprache ist die Weiterentwicklung der antiken griechischen Sprache.
    Deine Quellen Beweisen nur das du an Märchen glaubst.
    Die heutige Griechische Sprache ist ein zusammenwürfnis aus dem Lateinischen, Illyrischen, Türkischen und
    30% Altgriechischer Sprache die sich jedoch vom Dialekt und der Endlaute sehr von ihrem vorgänger unterscheidet.

    Wieder völliger Blödsinn es waren Christliche Orthodoxe Mittelalterliche Griechen die einen Großteil (von Platon über Thykidydes bis Homer) des Antiken Griechischen wissens aufbewahrt und dem Westen weiter gegeben hatten. In einer zeit als der westen völlig vom Antiken wissen abgekoppelt war. Das wird dir so jeder Historiker bestätigen können.
    Was die Kultur und das Christentum angeht, liegste wieder falsch. Das Christentum ist zu einer Zeit entstanden die vom Hellenismus gepraegt war. Das Christentum und der Hellenismus sind eng miteinander verknuepft. Die originale Bibel auf griechisch beweist es.


    Beherscht das Lügen ja tadellos. Nicht die Bibel an sich wurde auf Griechisch geschrieben sondern nur ein Teil davon, nämlich das Neue Testament um genau zu sein im Dialekt der Koine, dem jedoch keine Verwandschaft zum Spätantiken Griechisch zugesprochen wird. Ausserdem ist mir schleierhaft wie du darauf kommst das, das Christentum Hellenisiert ist.
    Die Schlachten Hannibals gegen das Römische Reich wurden auch als aller erstes auf Griechisch niedergeschrieben. Das die Alten Griechen dabei aber kaum eine Rolle gespielt haben soltest du jedoch wissen?!


    Ihr Albaner dagegen habt die Religion der Araber angenommen und benutzt arabische Woerter in eurem Sprachgebrauch also was willst du eigentlich??
    Die Osmanische Kultur war eine Kultur die Griechische,Arabische,Persiche und Armenische Aspekte beinhaltet. Der Bau der Moscheen die an der Hagia Sophia angelehnt ist beweist es. Weder haben wir eine turkmenisch zentralasiatische Kultur angemommen noch haben wir unsere eigene Kultur abgelegt. Die Albaner haben die Religion der Tuerken angenommen, obwohl euer groesster Nationalheld gegen diese und eure heutigen Religion gekaempft hat.



    Richtig erkannt, nur haben wir Albaner noch unsere alte Kultur und Sprache beibehalten. Bis aufs beten benutzen
    wir das Arabische nicht. Siehe Arbëreshët (Shqiptarët e Italisë), in ihnen wurde das Alt-Albanische [Wen man es überhaupt so nennen kann da es sich nur im Dialekt unterscheidet] konserviert. Auch Heute noch verstehen sich Arbërësh und Albaner aus Kosovo und Albanien ohne probleme. Sage du mir verstehst du ein Wort des Altgriechischen?! Weiter im Text, Skanderbeg hat nicht gegen den Islam gekämpft sondern gegen die Türkischen Invasoren, Religion war in Albanien im gegensatz zur Nationalen identiät immer zweitrangig.

    Siehe Trachten, unterschieden sich zu den aus Albanien nicht.

    Zur Osmanischen Kultur. Diese ist keine Griechische, Arabische, Persiche oder Armenische sondern eine Kultur
    die durch die Mongolischen vorfahren und den Anatolischen Bergvölkern geprägt wurde
    Turkvlker

    Im gegensatz zu eurer behielten die Türken diese bis Heute bei. Griechen dagegen ersetzten ihre Kultur binnen von 200 Jahren
    Osmanischer-Besatzung gegen die Türkische. Damit das auch mal in dein kleines Hirn reingezemert wird hier
    einige Beispiele von Volkstrachten der Osmanen und Neu-Griechen.








    Osmanische Volkstracht




    Griechische Volkstracht

    Du kannst dich winden und wälzen doch an der tatsache das dein Volk
    seine Kultur verloren hat wird sich nichts ändern .

    Laut einer neusten weltweit anerkannten Studie sind die Minoer und die heutigen Kreter sehr eng verwand was deiner aussagen deutlich wiederlegt das wir genetisch nichts mit der Antiken Bevölkerung Griechenlands zu tun haben.
    scinexx | Die Minoer kamen nicht aus Afrika: DNA-Analysen klären den Ursprung der ersten europäischen Hochkultur - Minoer, Kreta, Archäologie - Minoer, Kreta, Archäologie, Hochkultur, DNA, Minos, Knossos, Phaistos, Afrika, Ägypten, Europa, Ursprung,
    Und noch etwas zeigte die DNA-Analyse: Die Menschen, die heute auf der Lasithi-Ebene leben, tragen noch immer das Erbgut der Minoer in sich – und zwar zu einem größeren Teil als bisher angenommen. "Die enge Verwandtschaft der heutigen Kreter mit den Minoern ist offensichtlich", so die Forscher. (Nature Communications, 2013;
    Schachkopf, auf Inseln wie Kreta konnte sich das Erbgut der Alten Griechen ja auch halten wie ich in meinen vorherigen post geschrieben habe.

    Und noch mal für dumme die Happlongruppen (wie J2) kann man nicht einen bestimmten Volk zuordnen da sie vor mehr als 30 tausend jahren entstanden sind. J2 ist mindestens schon seid 8 tausend jahren auf dem Balkan bzw. in Europa und wird auch von einigen vorschern in ihrer form J2b1 mit den Antiken Griechen als träger in verbindeung gebracht.
    Im ernst, hast du dich eigentlich ansatzweise mal mit Gentechnik befasst?! Das was du da schreibst trifft nur so von Ahnungslosigkeit und schließt dich als ernstzunehmenden Gesprächspartner aus.

    Happlogruppe J existierte vor den Eroberungsfeldzügen Alexanders nicht in Europa. In geringen maße wurde erst jetzt durch den Sklavenhandel, minderheiten in Griechenland gebildet die aus dem Saudischen Raum, Persien und Irak die, Happlogruppe J2a1c (M68) und J1-M267 in sich trugen nach Europa gebracht die sich anschließend in Makedonien ettablierten.
    Wikipedia
    Athenian slaves were the property of their master (or of the state), who could dispose of them as he saw fit. He could give, sell, rent, or bequeath them. A slave could have a spouse and children, but the slave family was not recognized by the state, and the master could scatter the family members at any time.[87] Slaves had fewer judicial rights than citizens and were represented by their master in all judicial proceedings.[88] A misdemeanour that would result in a fine for the free man would result in a flogging for the slave; the ratio seems to have been one lash for one drachma.[84] With several minor exceptions, the testimony of a slave was not admissible except under torture.[89] Slaves were tortured in trials because they often remained loyal to their master. A famous example of trusty slave was Themistocles's Persian slave Sicinnus (the counterpart of Ephialtes of Trachis), who, despite his Persian origin, betrayed Xerxes and helped Athenians in the Battle of Salamis. Despite torture in trials, the Athenian slave was protected in an indirect way: if he was mistreated, the master could initiate litigation for damages and interest (δίκη βλάβης / dikē blabēs).[84] Conversely, a master who excessively mistreated a slave could be prosecuted by any citizen (γραφὴ ὕβρεως / graphē hybreōs); this was not enacted for the sake of the slave, but to avoid violent excess (ὕβρις / hubris).[90]
    Isocrates claimed that "not even the most worthless slave can be put to death without trial";[91] the master's power over his slave was not absolute.[92] Draco's law apparently punished with death the murder of a slave; the underlying principle was: "was the crime such that, if it became more widespread, it would do serious harm to society?"[93] The suit that could be brought against a slave's killer was not a suit for damages, as would be the case for the killing of cattle, but a δίκη φονική (dikē phonikē), demanding punishment for the religious pollution brought by the shedding of blood.[94] In the 4th century BC, the suspect was judged by the Palladion, a court which had jurisdiction over unintentional homicide;[95] the imposed penalty seems to have been more than a fine but less than death—maybe exile, as was the case in the murder of a Metic.[94]
    Slaves working in a mine of Laurium


    However, slaves did belong to their master's household. A newly-bought slave was welcomed with nuts and fruits, just like a newly-wed wife.[87] Slaves took part in most of the civic and family cults; they were expressly invited to join the banquet of the Choes, second day of the Anthesteria,[96] and were allowed initiation into the Eleusinian Mysteries.[87] A slave could claim asylum in a temple or at an altar, just like a free man. The slaves shared the gods of their masters and could keep their own religious customs if any.[96]
    Slaves could not own property, but their masters often let them save up to purchase their freedom,[97] and records survive of slaves operating businesses by themselves, making only a fixed tax-payment to their masters. Athens also had a law forbidding the striking of slaves: if a person struck what appeared to be a slave in Athens, that person might find himself hitting a fellow-citizen, because many citizens dressed no better. It astonished other Greeks that Athenians tolerated back-chat from slaves.[98] Athenian slaves fought together with Athenian freemen at the battle of Marathon, and the monuments memorialize them.[99] It was formally decreed before the battle of Salamis that the citizens should "save themselves, their women, children, and slaves".[100]
    Slaves had special sexual restrictions and obligations. For example, a slave could not engage free boys in pederastic relationships ("A slave shall not be the lover of a free boy nor follow after him, or else he shall receive fifty blows of the public lash."), and they were forbidden from the palaestrae ("A slave shall not take exercise or anoint himself in the wrestling-schools."). Both laws are attributed to Solon.[101] Fathers wanting to protect their sons from unwanted advances provided them with a slave guard, called a paidagogos, to escort the boy in his travels.
    The sons of vanquished foes would be enslaved and often forced to work in male brothels, as in the case of Phaedo of Elis, who at the request of Socrates was bought and freed from such an enterprise by the philosopher's rich friends.[102] On the other hand it is attested in sources that the rape of slaves was percecuted, at least occasionally.
    Slavery in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Griechen haben sich zu einem Mix aus Slawen, Makedonen, Illyren, Türkvölkern, Arabern und Afrikanern entwickelt.
    In Keiner Region Griechenlands bis auf einige Inseln auf der Ägäis und Kreta existiert mehr eine in nur
    ansatzweise vorhandene Homgogenität.

    THE CONTINUATION OF GREEK CULTURE?
    Arnold Toynbee discusses the evolution of the meaning of the word "Hellene" in Greek literary usage, noting that it was originally given to a very specific group of northwest Greek-speaking people who lived in the interior of Epirus, but later came to be used to describe the association of twelve peoples in central and northeastern continental Greece that formed the Delphi-Anthela amphictyony. This was primarily a religious communality. Other Greek citystates joined this association and the name Hellene was applied to all who participated in this civilization. Toynbee points out that the principal distinctive feature of this new Hellenic civilization, a characteristic that distinguished it from the earlier Mycenaean civilization, was the city-state. This feature was more important even than language, as is evidenced by the admission of the Luvian-speaking city-states of Lycia and Caria. Toynbee notes that Herodotus, writing in 479 B.C., put common race and language first in his definition of Hellenism, but acknowledged a role for a common culture. However, Isocrates, nearly 100 years later (380 B.C.), made the point that the Athenians "have given the name 'Hellenes' a spiritual connotation instead of its former racial one. People who share in our Athenian culture are now felt to have a stronger title to the name 'Hellenes' than people who share with us merely a common physical make-up. Robert Browning dismisses the significance of the Slavic influence in Greece by taking up this idea, arguing that being Hellene was not a matter of genetics or tribal membership, but of education. Thus Browning suggests that if you speak Greek and live like a Greek, you are Greek. Cheetharn takes a similar tack, claiming that the "original" citizens of the Balkan peninsula were intensely proud of their Hellenic culture but adding that questions about racial origins would have appeared pointless to educated persons of the high Byzantine age, since they tended to indifference towards such matters. They had become quite accustomed to the enormous ethnic mixture that had characterized the empire since late Roman times. Both of these explanations, though intended to be sympathetic to the Greeks, are diametrically opposed to the present Greek government position. Like Robert Browning, Cheetharn makes the point that there was at least some continuity of culture in early medieval times, since the mixture of peoples was held together by the combined power of "Greek civilization, Roman law and the Christian religion." Cheetham argues that the Slav immigrants were progressively intermingled with the Greeks so that an eventual fusion took place. Browning also notes that over time the Slavs were acculturated and were often converted to Christianity. A process of "re-hellenization" took place, led by the Greek Orthodox Church, using the vehicle of the Greek language. To use the words of Nicholas Cheetham, (in the south) "religion and Hellenization marched hand in hand." The Slavs and Albanians, in particular, converted to Christianity and learned to speak Greek. The nature of this re-hellenization must be questioned, since even its advocates recognize that Roman law and the Christian religion were in no sense contiguous with classical culture yet made up a large part of the character of this "new hellenic culture." If we strip away the religion of classical Greece and the unifying force of common shrines and rituals of the Delphi-Anthela arnphictyony; eliminate the political structure of the city-state; and replace Greek law and administrative procedures with those of Rome, it seems unreasonable to assert that the remaining elements constitute a culture essentially the same as classical Greece. It is simply not plausible to suggest that the bulk of Greekspeaking Roman citizens in the Middle Ages, let alone the former Turkish subjects of nineteenth-century Greece, "lived like" ancient Greeks. Making a case about the difficulty classical writers faced in distinguishing between dialects of Greek, Arnold Toynbee 61 offers an analogy. He suggests that a speaker of High German from Frankfurt am Main, or a speaker of Low German from Flanders or Holland, might find it difficult to believe that the language spoken by people in some rural district in Luxembourg, Alsace, or one of the forest cantons of Switzerland is a dialect of his own language. Perhaps the most interesting point about this example is how it demonstrates that although people may speak dialects of the same language, they can enjoy very different lifestyles and cultures. If we compare the Dutch seaman of the sixteenth century and a Swiss-German farmer of the same period, we might wonder whether the two would see any affinities between themselves except for a remote language similarity. We might also contemplate the absurdity of the idea of a Swiss-German of the present day saying to himself, "My (Dutch) ancestors were among the greatest of sea navigators." It would be an anachronism. Eric Hobsbawn reminds us: The most usual ideological abuse of history is based on anachronism rather than lies. Greek nationalism refused Macedonia even the right to its name on the grounds that all Macedonia is essentially Greek and part of a Greek nation-State, presumably ever since the father of Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia, became ruler of the Greek lands on the Balkan peninsula ... it takes a lot of courage for a Greek intellectual to say that, historically speaking, it is nonsense. There was no Greek nation-State or any other single political entity for the Greeks in the fourth century B.C.; the Macedonian empire was nothing like the Greek or any other modern nation-state, and in any case it is highly probable that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian rulers, as they did their later Roman rulers, as barbarians and not as Greeks, though they were doubtless too polite or cautious to say so.
    In the same way that it would be questionable for a modern Swiss-German to claim descendence from sixteenth century Dutch seafarers, it is questionable for modern Greeks to claim family affinity with the ancient Macedonians, even if the ethnological purity which such a claim requires could be established. An appeal to continuity of Hellenism through the Greek language is similarly dubious. We have already seen Roger Just's comment that by the nineteenth-century most of the newly independent "Greeks" did not call themselves Hellenes, and did not even speak Greek by preference. Furthermore, the use of a form of the Slavic language was still widespread, perhaps dominant, in the territories that were not taken into the Greek nation until later in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. It has been claimed that the Greek language of the nineteenth century was a corrupted ecclesiastical version of classical Greek that the ancients might have had some trouble comprehending. George Finlay was extremely critical of this language and the role of the church hierarchy based in Constantinople in reducing it to the level apparent in the mid-nineteenth century. If we consider the standard applied by Herodotus that ancestry, language and culture were the basis for Greek community, or even if we prefer the evolved definition of Isocrates that gives primary emphasis to culture, it is not an unreasonable conclusion that nineteenth-century Greeks failed to meet these criteria. After the establishment of independence, Greek intellectuals made a great effort to return their country to its Hellenic past. Classical place names were revived, and Turkish, Venetian and even Byzantine buildings were removed to reveal ancient ruins. The language was standardized in the nineteenth century as part of a concerted effort to create a new Greece. This brought some stability to the culture of the diverse "new Hellenic" peoples who could be recognized at that time. Since 1988 and the renaming of northern Greece as Macedonia, a whole new focus has been given to the Greek effort to identify with the classical and Hellenic past.
    INFLUENCES IN THE GREEK ETHNIC MIX
    Slavery in the ancient world. While it is difficult to gauge the intermixture that took place between the older established inhabitants and the infiltrating Greeks wherever they may have come from, the tradition of slavery in the ancient Mediterranean may have had an even greater impact on the physical nature of the people. It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in Attica was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000." In Sparta there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of Athens were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of Sparta all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented "special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline." Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly,
    "made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name." Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, "The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous.” Celtic Influence. In 282-280 B.C., a Celtic army of about 170,000 led by Brennos and Achicorius entered Macedonia and, with Bolgios, overwhelmed the country. The Celtic army swept into Greece, defeating the Greeks at Thermopylae, and went on to sack the temple of Delphi, the most sacred site of the Hellenic world, before withdrawing. The Celtic army eventually withdrew in an orderly manner, taking their loot with them. No Greek army was strong enough to attack them. The Celtic invasions had a lasting effect on Greek consciousness, being commemorated in Greek literature. Though some remained as mercenaries, the bulk of the Celtic armies moved north again, having found little room to settle in populated Greece and Macedonia. The Celts remained in Thrace, though they were Hellenized. The Scordisci had established a prosperous and strong kingdom around modern Belgrade, and one Celtic tribe settled on the slopes of Haemos. However, most went further north and east, some even settling in Asia Minor, in Galatia. Greeks as Slavs. In recent historical time other Europeans have held the view that the people of modern Greece have little ethnic connection with the ancient Greeks. Robert Browning, 32 a writer who is sympathetic to the Greeks, discusses the writings of the Bavarian Johann Philipp Fallmerayer, who in 1830 proposed that the Slav invasions and settlements of the late sixth and seventh centuries resulted in the "expulsion or extirpation of the original population of peninsula Greece. Consequently the medieval and modern Greeks ... are not the descendants of the Greeks of antiquity, and their Hellenism is artificial." Fallmerayer's view that not a drop of pure Greek blood is to be found in the modern Greek is often held to be extreme. A more moderate version of essentially the same idea was presented more recently by R.H. Jenkins. Browning concedes that the Slavic impact was considerable in the Balkan peninsula, and that there was great intermixture of races in Balkan Greek lands. He says Fallnierayer wits right in drawing attention to the extensive Slav invasion and settlement in continental Greece. Despite the great attention given by the Greek government to renaming towns, villages, rivers and other geographic locations, there remain large numbers of place names of Slavonic origin. Even so, Browning suggests, the majority of the Greek-speaking people lived in Constantinople and Asia Minor, and in these more distant locations were not so strongly affected by the Slavs. He says also that the original population was not extirpated or expelled, since many remained in coastal regions, cities, and inaccessible areas.
    Nicholas Cheetham is uncompromising in the language he uses to describe the Slav influence. He says that between the fifth and seventh centuries "a sharp and brutal revolution altered the whole character of Hellas... It also involved a steep decline of civilized life and an almost total rejection of former values... The most striking change affected the ethnic composition of the people and resulted from the mass migration of Slavs into the Balkans which began in the sixth Century.” Cheetham explains that the eastern emperor held back the Slavs for decades. For instance, the emperor Constans Il (642-68) successfully forced back the "Macedonian Slavs" (as Cheetham calls them) who were threatening Thessalonika. Later Constans' grandson, Justinian II, undertook a major campaign against the Slavs and settled many in Asia. But in the end there was a continuous infiltration followed by settlement. It seems that earthquakes and the bubonic plague had thinned the population on the eve of the Slav invasion. After the great plague of 744-747, Constantinople was repopulated with Greeks from the Balkan peninsula and the islands, and this may have made even more room for the newcomers. The land was repeopled, Cheetham says. The Slavs occupied the fertile plains and river valleys, while the original peoples were forced into the numerous mountain ranges. The Slavs remained rural dwellers, so the cities may have suffered less from their arrival. The Slav settlements extended the length and breadth of the Balkan peninsula. They overran the "whole of Greece," and more, Cheetham says. Their influence extended across the Balkans from the Danube to Cape Tainaron. In the process, Roman authority was submerged, and the remnants of classical culture and the Christian religion were extinguished. There were few areas remaining where the Greeks predominated, though at least in those early times Thessalonika was one of them. In the eighth century Strabonos Epithomatus wrote, "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and Macedonia have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." In general, the lands that had been Greek in ancient times were commonly regarded by foreigners as a Slav preserve. In 805 the Slavs came under imperial control. They learned the ways of Roman citizens and were probably being attracted to Christianity. Eventually, peasant farmers from Asia minor were brought in to recolonize coastal plains and river valleys of "Hellas." Those Slavs who did not assimilate were gradually pushed back into the more rugged and inhospitable regions of the interior. The distinction between Romans and assimilated Slavs became blurred. As early as 766 Niketas, a (Macedonian) Slav, became patriarch of the Constantinople patriarchate. Nicholas Cheetham claims that the Orthodox church made intense efforts to convert the Slavs in Greece, and that this took effect more or less in the period from A.D. 800 to 1000, only when the Greek language had ousted Slavonic. Again, this effect was stronger in the southern part of the peninsula than further to the north, since the Christianization of the Slavs as a whole was made possible only when some Slav monks from Thessalonika created a suitable script in their own language as the vehicle for this task. Yet the central point, that the ethnic mix was profound, is quite clear. Another historian, Tom Winnifrith, says that the Slav conquest of the Balkans was rapid, eliminating the Latin heritage. He says the Slavs "spread throughout Greece." However, it was not just the Slavs who created ethnic change at this time. Winnifrith says there were many Latin-speaking refugees from cities in the thickly populated areas of the Danube frontier and Illyricum who are likely to have gravitated to Salonika and Constantinople and exchanged their Latin for Greek. These refugees added another element to the constantly changing ethnic equation in the Balkans. The extent of the Slavic inroad is evident on maps showing mediaeval population distribution. The map titled "Slavs in the Balkans" shows that by about the eighth century A.D., Slavs were settled along the whole length of the Balkan peninsula right to the tip of the Peloponnese and were especially strong along the western coast. Pockets of Greek inhabitants remained along the east coast. The Byzantine emperor Constantine Porphyrgenitus openly says that the whole of Hellas had been Slavicized. The Slavonic tribes of the Ezerites and the Milingi were independent in the Peloponnese in the seventh and eighth centuries and did not pay tribute to Byzantium. Even today in the Peloponnese, one cannot go three miles in any direction without encountering a Slavonic place-name." Arnold Toynbee compares the Slavic invasion with the early Greek invasions, noting that "on the mainland itself, the Slav occupation was more nearly complete than the North-West-Greek occupation had been." He explains that Attica was not occupied in either historical invasion, but in the Peloponnese, "Arcadia, which had escaped occupation in the twelfth century B.C. was now overrun." For more than two hundred years, till the reconquest of the Peloponnese by the East Roman government around A.D. 850, the Slavs controlled almost all of it. "As late as the year A.D. 1204, the French invaders of the Peloponnese found that, after more than three centuries of East Roman rule, there were still two independent Slav peoples, the Ezeritai and the Melingoi, in the fastness of Mount Taygetos." There is much agreement among historians about the dramatic and overpowering influx of Slavic peoples to Greece. These people often intermarried and were assimilated in the "Roman" culture. Some writers tend to downplay the importance of the racial intermixture for Hellenization, suggesting that being a Hellene does not require particular racial antecedents. This is a point that modern Greeks appear unwilling to believe. Their preference seems to be simply to deny that "ethnological adulteration" ever took place. For example, in Macedonia, History and Politics (a publication sponsored by the Greek government and distributed throughout the English-speaking world) it is acknowledged (p. 10) that after Basil 11 there was a "solid Slav element" in Yugoslav and Bulgarian Macedonia, but it claims there was no impact at all in Greek Macedonia, or in Greece itself. The analyses from other sources lead us inevitably to a rejection of these claims. The Slavic influence in what is now Greece is clear. However, there were other important influences also. Greeks as Albanians. Slavs were not the only groups to move into the southern part of the Balkan peninsula. Many Albanians came in also. Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands. In the early nineteenth century, the population of Athens was 24 percent Albanian, 32 percent Turkish, and only 44 percent Greek. The village of Marathon, scene of the great victory in 490 B.C., was, early in the nineteenth century, almost entirely Albanian." Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens, is unable to support the Greek view on this matter. He says that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian speakers. The fascinating point is that the people with whom they were competing for land were overwhelmingly not the original Greek-speaking Roman citizens, but the new breed of Greek-speaking Slavs. As Hammond says, many Greek-speaking people at that point in time were probably ethnic Slavs. The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there. Greeks as Vlachs. Also quite numerous during the eighteenth century in Greek lands and in territories that were to become Greek were the Vlachs. Hammond says that the Vlachs came in with the Albanians and provided leadership. He suggests that the Vlach peoples probably originated in Dacia, an area that is now part of Romania. Hammond says that the Vlachs managed to acquire possession of the great Pindus area. In general, they stayed in northern Greece and were never assimilated in terms of language the way that other ethnic groups were, though some groups ended the nomadic life and settled in Macedonia and in Thessaly. According to Tom Winnifrith, some Greek writers have claimed the Vlachs as ethnic Greeks. He is skeptical about this idea, claiming that these Greek historians have "been at unfair pains to eliminate almost completely the Latin element in Vlach language and history." Winnifrith comments that one of these Greek writers, M. Chrysochoos, the first to suggest that the Vlachs living in the passes crossing the Pindus mountains were the linear descendants of Roman soldiers, is inspired by misplaced patriotism to insist that these Romans were really some kind of Greeks.
    The Vlachs seem to have left Dacia as part of a wave of migration that spread throughout the Balkans from Greece, where they are known as Kutzo Vlachs, Tzintzars, or Aromani, through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia to the Trieste region . Many of them are still in these areas today. They all speak varieties of Romanian, but represent the remnants of originally Dacian-, Illyrian-, Thracian- and even Scythian- speaking tribes. Vlachs settled in Thessaly, Rourneli, the Ionian islands and the Aegean islands. The Romanian Balkan history professor Motiu has said that the Vlachs comprised 7 to 8 percent of the population of Greece, numbering seven to eight hundred thousand. There have been no population statistics regarding the Vlach minority since the Greek census of 1951. The census of 1935 and 1951 recorded 19,703 and 39,855 Vlachs respectively. Greece does not recognize the presence of a Vlach minority.
    Greeks as Turks. A recent issue that has engaged the vigorous attention of Greek politicians is the position and status of Cyprus. It is an area of conflict with Turkey, and one in which Greece has attempted to influence world opinion in its direction by fostering the theory of Greek ethnic purity. In 1964 German archaeologist Franz Maier argued that the Turkish Cypriots were a "people" and not a minority, and that Greek Cypriots and Greeks were not really racially Greek but a mixture. Similarly the Cypriot sociologist Andreas Panayiotou has been quoted as saying that Cypriots were not Greek, but were a synthesis of Greek, Turkish and other elements. He advocated that the Cypriot dialect should become the island's official language. Some external observers (perhaps with their own case to make) have come to similar conclusions: "Greece, while denying the presence of ethnic and religious minorities within its borders, tries to convince the world that the Orthodox people living in its neighboring countries are ethnic Greeks. But this is not true. In Cyprus, the Southern Cypriot Orthodox whom Greece presents to the world as Greek Cypriots, are not ethnic Greeks.” This material demonstrates that the Greek attitude towards ethnic purity in Greece, and all that follows from it, can be seen in various spheres of political interest, not only in the case of the ethnic Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia and in behaviors towards the new Republic of Macedonia. It is a mainstay of the Greek nationalist position. The Cyprus position is something of a special case; nevertheless, it reminds us of the 400-year occupation of Greek lands by the Turks and the inevitable ethnic impact. It has already been noted that in the early part of the nineteenth century the population of Athens was about one-third Turk. "Auberon Waugh ... wrote in The Daily Telegraph that the Greeks of today, with hairy popos, flat noses and bushy eyebrows, are clearly a race of Turkish descent and have nothing to do with the Greeks of antiquity sculpted on the Elgin marbles."
    The Myth of Greek Ethnic 'Purity'

    Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

    Guerrier

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