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Isocrates, Speeches and Letters (ed. George Norlin) u.v.m

Erstellt von Macedonian, 16.11.2005, 11:16 Uhr · 252 Antworten · 56.372 Aufrufe

  1. #41
    Avatar von Schiptar

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    Wollte damit eigentlich nur sagen, daß dieser Thread ein willkommenes Aufwärm-Sparring für "the real thing" darstellt...

  2. #42
    Avatar von Macedonian

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    Zitat Zitat von Schiptar
    ...dieser Thread...Aufwärm-Sparring für "the real thing" darstellt...
    Ich habe meinen Teil beigtragen, du hast mehr oder weniger was ''versprochen''! Halte dich auch daran!

    Gruß
    Macedonian

  3. #43
    Avatar von Macedonian

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    :!:

    Zitat Zitat von Macedonian
    Zitat Zitat von Schiptar
    ...
    ...Ich muß das erst mal Stück für Stück durchgehen, um da eventuelle Schwachstellen zu suchen...
    Alles klar! Entspann dich, suche die ''Schwachstellen'' und führe sie mir dann auf.

    Gruß
    Macedonian
    :!:

  4. #44
    Avatar von Macedonian

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    ARISTOTELES


    Aristoteles (384-322 v. Chr.), griechischer Philosoph. Zusammen mit Platon und Sokrates gehört er zu den berühmtesten und bedeutendsten Philosophen des Altertums.

    Aristoteles wurde in Stagira in Makedonien geboren und zog im Alter von 17 Jahren nach Athen, um an Platons Akademie zu studieren. Dort blieb er etwa 20 Jahre lang, anfangs als Student und dann als Lehrer. Nach Platons Tod 347 v. Chr. zog Aristoteles nach Assos, einer Stadt in Kleinasien. Dort herrschte Hermias, mit dem er befreundet war. Auf Anraten Hermias’ heiratete er dessen Nichte und Adoptivtochter Pythias. Nachdem Hermias 345 v. Chr. von den Persern gefangen genommen und getötet wurde, zog Aristoteles nach Pella, der Hauptstadt Makedoniens. Dort war er Erzieher des Thronfolgers, des späteren Alexanders des Großen. Als Alexander 335 v. Chr. König wurde, kehrte Aristoteles nach Athen zurück und gründete seine eigene Schule, das Lykeion. Da die Gespräche zwischen Schülern und Lehrern häufig während Spaziergängen auf dem Schulgelände des Lykeion stattfanden, wurde Aristoteles’ Schule als die der Peripatetiker (Wandelschule) bekannt [...]
    Quelle:
    Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2006 © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. Alle Rechte vorbehalten.

  5. #45
    Avatar von Schiptar

    Registriert seit
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    In der Zwischenzeit, bis ich alle von Dir angegebenen Quell durch habe, verweise ich mal auf ein paar andere Leute (ich hab mir das noch nicht ganz durchgelesen, also mußt Du nicht annehmen, daß ich 100% mit denen übereinstimme):
    :arrow: http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/Gree...tWebsites.html
    ---
    INTRODUCTION

    The Greek propagandist website http://truth.macedonia.gr/ is stating that the Macedonians were "Greek":

    1."The Macedonian sun symbol is Greek"

    2."Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language"

    3."Macedonians had Greek names"

    4."The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names"

    5."Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks"

    6."Macedonians took part in the Olympic games"

    7."Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks."

    8."Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks"

    9."Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture"

    10."The famous ancient Greek play writer Euripidis wrote and originally presented most of his plays in Pella, the capital of Macedonia. How was that possible if the audience spoke a different language?"

    11."Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony, an institution which was open only to Greeks."

    12."When Alexander arrived in Asia he visited the ancient Greek town of Troy (Troia), where he sacrificed to the Greek Gods to help him in his quest."

    13."A part from the "Treaty of Alliance" between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal."

    14."Alexander's speech to his solders one year before his death"

    15."The speech of Alexander I when he was admitted to the Olympic games"

    16."What was the origin of ancient Macedonians?"

    Additional alleged historical scholarship which according to http://truth.macedonia.gr/ states that the Macedonians were "Greek":

    Modern Sources

    1. John Pentland Mahaffy

    2. Peter Green

    3. Malcom Errington

    4. Mortimer Chambers



    Ancient Sources

    1. Polybios

    2. Herodotus

    3. Thoukididis

    4. Arrian

    5. Plutarchos

    6. Isokratis

    7. Pausanias

    GREEK CLAIM: "The propaganda against Greece is often based on quotes from ancient historians (mainly Greek) who seem to consider Macedonia as a different nation. These quotes usually consist of one or two isolated lines which is misleading. If the reader reads the whole document the meaning is completely different. Furthermore there are cases where the translation is not accurate or even cases where some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning."

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Here, we see an obvious attack on the Macedonian pages, attack which we will examine now in greater detail, and prove logically that it can not be taken seriously. Notice that the Greek page http://truth.macedonia.gr/ nowhere shows where the Macedonian pages had presented "misleading"," translation is not accurate", or "cases where some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning." The obvious question therefore appears: If in fact some Macedonian internet pages show "misleading" quotes, where "the translation is not accurate", or most importantly where" some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning" (as the Greek here states), then why is he not showing these specific examples for the world to see? Sure that would be of his great advantage to prove in details and examples how the Macedonian pages are "carefully altering" the words of the ancient Greek and Roman historians, but he is silent. Why? Instead, he gives only 2 indeed questionable pages of quotes (which is really the maximum of the questionable quotes they can ever "squeeze" from the ancient authors), and avoids purposely to quote the overwhelming hundreds of pages of ancient and modern authentic quotes (taken simply from the original books) that clearly show that the Macedonians were not Greeks. The answer is simple – the Greek propaganda is poor, resting on outdated, purposely twisted, and misleading evidence of ancient authors (Arrian, Herodotus, Thucydides just to name a few example where they have done that below), and they can not counter the overwhelming evidence and facts that shows that the Macedonians were not Greek. There is simply no Macedonian page that have presented, as they claim, any "misleading", "translation inaccurate" or " cases where some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning." That is precisely the reason why they do not show where these alleged Macedonian pages have "twisted" the alleged ancient sources. We will however, expose how the Greeks are twisting the ancient quotes in details below, and we will use both ancient (including Greek), as well as modern scholastic evidence for that purpose.

    GREEK CLAIM: "History is harsh to those who try to manipulate it. Here is a small collection of quotes that proves what was the ancient Greek's opinion about the Macedonians."

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Indeed. We will see now who is in fact manipulating history, and what in fact the ancient and modern quotes prove.



    ANSWERS TO THE GREEK PROPAGANDA

    1) "The Macedonian sun symbol is Greek"

    GREEK CLAIM: "There is no doupt that ancient Macedonians were Greek. It is thoroughly proved by historic documents and archaeological discoveries which can be found in history books and museums in Greece and around the world. The most important archeological discovery in Macedonia is the tomb of King Philippos II. It was excavated in Vergina, Greece in 1978 and it proves beyond any doubt the Greekness of ancient Macedonia. All the findings are characteristic of the Greek culture and all the inscriptions are written using the Greek language. Among the discoveries of this tomb is the "Vergina sun" the symbol that FYROM attempted to use on its flag initially".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: The Macedonians were not Greek, but simply Macedonians, and Macedonia was never a Greek land. Actually, the very first time that the modern Greeks have seen the Macedonian sun (Vergina sun) was only in 1978. However, the modern Macedonians had known about this symbol ever since Alexander the Great and his father Philip II had used it. The Macedonian sun can be found engraved on the centuries-old Macedonian churches and monasteries, and it is also common in the hand made centuries-old folklore designs. Therefore, if anybody is steeling this Macedonian symbol today, that is the modern Greeks, since they knew nothing about it until 1978, while the Macedonians had cherished it ever since its existence. We should point out that the original name of Vergina where the discovery was made in 1978, was Kutlesh. This original Macedonian name was replaced by the Greek name Vergina, after Greece swallowed 51% of the territory of Macedonia, including Kutlesh, with the partition of 1913.

    2) "Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language All the monuments and inscriptions found in the Macedonia region are written in the Greek language. It is also crearly stated by the Latin historian Titus Livius: "Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language..." (T. Livius XXXI,29, 15) and the Greek historian Herodotos : "Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers..." (Herodotos, The histories 7.9.2)"

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: The Macedonians did not speak a "dialect of Greek" but they had their own language. The above quote by Herodotus is misleading since Herodotus himself did not consider the Macedonians to be Greek.

    "We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4)…" N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141. Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly excludes the Macedonians from the Greeks. "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" – Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96

    Titus Livius (Livy) also didn’t consider the Macedonians to be Greek and the quote above is again misleading. Livy even wrote in details on the hatred that the Greeks had for the Macedonians, their name and race: "Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS." [Livy's book XXXI.44]

    Now that we established that neither Herodotus nor Livy considered the Macedonians to be Greeks, we can reveal the facts that the Macedonians did not speak a "dialect of Greek", but they had their own distinctive language:

    Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedonians of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

    Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present [Greeks and Persians] who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the [Greek] language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

    Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language". Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander" [p.138]

    This is Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case", not about some "dialect of Greek". There is no need for any explanation.

    3) "Macedonians had Greek names"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians had Greek names All the ancient Macedonian names mentioned in history or found on tombs are Greek. All the kings of Ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Alexander's name is Greek. Philip's name is also Greek".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: The Macedonians did not have Greek names. It is acutely judging by the distinctiveness of the surviving Macedonian names and glosses, that many scholars proved that the Macedonians were not Greek. Today, people of different ethnic backgrounds carry same names like Peter, David, Daniel, etc. These names are universal just like the names of Alexander and Philip were, and therefore, these names are not a proof that the Macedonians were Greek, since these names are found in other non-Greek nations.

    GREEK CLAIM: "Some more ancient Macedonian names can be found Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira, Hermias - Philosopher, Anaksarxos - Philosopher, Marsias - Writer, Zoilos - Writer, Leocharis - Sculptor, Lysippos - Sculptor, Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt, Calisthenis - Historian, Aristoboulos - Historian, Aristokritos - Actor, Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's, Nearchos - Navy commander, Callisthenis, Eumenis, Leonatos, Memmon"

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Here we find a clear distortion of history by the modern Greek propaganda. All these names that the Greek propaganda here would like to portray as "Macedonian names" are in fact names of the ethnic Greeks (not of Macedonians), which served in the train of Alexander the Great. Memnon was a Greek who even fought against Alexander, yet the Greek propaganda calls his name Macedonian? This is indeed absurd. Interesting (inadvertent) reversals in Hammond narrative:

    "Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly. It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions (e.g. Nearchus a Cretan, Eumenes a citizen of Cardia, and Sitalces a member of the Odrysian royal family). Some of them, if they served in the King's Army, were given Macedonian citizenship, which apparently was in the gift of the king." N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141

    Even Hammond states that the above names (that the Greek propaganda is presenting) were names of Greeks, who were foreigners in the Macedonian train. Therefore, the above statement coming from the Greek propaganda can not serve as a "proof" that the "Macedonians were Greek", since the above names were not Macedonian, but Greek.

    Eugene Borza's "Makedonika" on the number of Greeks serving the Macedonian king together with the Macedonians: "Of the nearly 850 persons listed by Berve, 275 are either certainly or probably ethnic Greeks. Of this number, 126 persons are not associated with Alexander's train, and thus outside present concerns. Of the 149 which remain, 69-- nearly half-- are court figures not associated with administration. They include sophists, physicians, actors, athletes, musicians, jugglers, and other entertainers, and a variety of hangers-on. 89 names remain. Of these three are of uncertain ethnic origin. 24 Greeks serve the king in variety of administrative tasks: some are envoys, some are clerks, some financial officers, some act as king's agents in local places. They pop in and out of the historical record as Alexander sees the need to employ them. The remaining 53 Greeks serve specific military functions. Out of these 53 persons, 22 names are attached to a single unit (the allies from Orchomenos), who, by the way, are dismissed along with the other Greek allies in 330 B.C. (Only a few short years into the expedition). Fourteen other Greeks hold naval appointments, either as ship commanders in the Hydaspes fleet, or in conjunction with Nearchus' ocean voyage. Four Greeks are in charge of mercenary units, and 9 others have unspecified, low- level military assignments. Seven have duties that did not take them beyond Egypt. In summary, of the 149 known Greeks with official connections to the king, only 35 to 40 held positions of rank- some as officers, some as administrators, but only a handful in top positions." "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality."

    4) "The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names"

    GREEK CLAIM: "The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Again not correct. This is explained with the explanation of the above point, regarding the Macedonian names.

    5) "Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks. Macedonians always fought along with the other Greek city-states against enemies from Asia".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This is an extremely week try to portray the Macedonians as Greeks. Actually it would be correct to call Darius' army - Greek army, since 50,000 Greeks were fighting on Darius' side against Alexander and his Macedonians, while only 7,000 Greeks served as ‘hostages’ the ambitions of the Macedonian king. From Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander" Patron, the Greek commander, speaks with Darius:

    "Your Majesty", said Patron, "we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. We were all with you in your more fortunate days, and in your present situation we remain as we were when you were prospering, ready to make for and to accept as our country and our home any lands you choose. We and you have been drawn together both by your prosperity and your adversity. By this inviolable loyalty of ours I beg and beseech you: pitch your tent in our area of the camp and let us be your bodyguards. We have left Greece behind; for us there is no Bactria; our hopes rest entirely in you - I wish that were true of the others also! Further talk serves no purpose. As a foreigner born of another race I should not be asking for the responsibility of guarding your person if I thought anyone else could do it." [p.112-13]

    50,000 Greeks serving with Darius’ army and fighting against Alexander's Macedonians. A legitimate and a very obvious question: If Alexander’s army was in fact a ‘Greek army’, as the modern Greeks claim, then how is it possible for a ‘Greek king’- Alexander, to hire mercenaries - Greeks, from his 'own' country? 50,000 strong Greeks were with Darius fighting the Macedonians, while Alexander took only 7,000 Greeks next to his Macedonians which served him as "hostages" and "were potential trouble makers" ( Green ), which he got rid of only when he learned that the rebellion in Greece against the Macedonian occupation forces there was suppressed (Green, Badian, Borza). The fact that 50,000 Greeks were fighting Alexander’s Macedonians shows clearly that their loyalty and their numerical superiority lies with Darius and his Persians, not with Alexander and his Macedonians. As Peter Green puts it: "if this was a Greek conquest where were the Greek troops?" Alexander’s conquest can not therefore be at all a Greek conquest, but simply a Macedonian conquest. Please click here to see the overwhelming proofs that the Alexander’s army was not a Greek army, and that Alexander did not care about the Greeks, but his Macedonians.

    6) "Macedonians took part in the Olympic games"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians took part in the Olympic games It is well known then ONLY Greeks were allowed to take part in the ancient Olympic games. The first Macedonian who took part in the Olympic games was Alexander I, King of Macedonia between 498-454 bc".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Alexander I was neither Greek, nor he took part in the Greek Olympic Games. Let’s examine the source, which claims that he did: "I happen to know, and I will demonstrate in a subsequent chapter of this history, that these descendants of Perdiccas are, as they themselves claim, of Greek nationality. This was, moreover, recognized by the managers of the Olympic games, on the occasion when Alexander wished to compete and his Greek competitors tried to exclude him on the ground that foreigners were not allowed to take part. Alexander, however, proved his Argive descent, and so was accepted as a Greek and allowed to enter for the foot-race. He came in equal first." Herodotus book 5. 22.

    Lets us now examine this claim regarding Alexander I alleged participation in the Greek games. We start with the fact that the preserved list of the victors of the race in which Alexander supposedly took part, does not include his name. This by itself creates suspicion if he indeed took part in that race. Eugene Borza In The Shadow of Olympus p. 112 writes:

    "Herodotus' story is fraught with too many difficulties to make sense of it. For example, either (1) Alexander lost the run-off for his dead heat, which is why his name does not appear in the victor lists; or (2) he won the run-off, although Herodotus does not tell us this; or (3) it remained a dead heat, which is impossible in light Olympic practice; or (4) it was a special race, in which case it is unlikely that his fellow competitors would have protested Alexander's presence; or (5) Alexander never competed at Olympia. It is best to abandon this story, which belongs in the category of the tale of Alexander at Plataea. In their commentaries on these passages Macan and How and Wells long ago recognized that the Olympic Games story was based on family legend (Hdt. 5.22: "as the descendants of Perdiccas themselves say [autoi legousi]"), weak proofs of their Hellenic descent. Moreover, the Olympic Games tale is twice removed: Herodotus heard from the Argeadea (perhaps from Alexander himself) that the king had told something to the judges, but we do not know what those proofs were."

    "The theme of the Olympic and Plataea incidents are the same: "I am Alexander, a Greek" which seems to be the main point. The more credible accounts of Alexander at Tempe and at Athens do not pursue this theme; they state Alexander's activities without embellishment or appeal to prohellenism. Moreover, the insistence that Alexander is a Greek, and descendant from Greeks, rubs against the spirit of Herodotus 7.130, who speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission--a perfect opportunity for Herodotus to point out that the Macedonians were a non Greek race ruled over by Greek kings, something he nowhere mentions."

    "In sum, it would appear that Olympia and Plataea incidents---when taken together with the tale of the ill--fated Persian embassy to Amyntas' court in which Alexander proclaims the Greek descent of the royal house--are part of Alexander's own attempts to integrate himself into the Greek community during the postwar period. They should be discarded both because they are propaganda and because they invite suspicion on the general grounds outlined above."

    Borza concludes: "It is prudent to reject the stories of the ill--fated Persian embassy to Amyntas's court, Alexander's midnight ride at Plataea, and his participation in the Olympic Games as tales derived from Alexander himself (or from some official court version of things)."

    The Macedonians as foreigners did not participate at the Greek Olympic games, until they "earned" their part with force, after conquering Greece. Nobody could then forbid Philip II his choices. Furthermore, the Macedonian king Archelaus founded the Macedonian Olympic Games in the Macedonian city Dion, some 70 years earlier, which Badian calls it "counter Olympics". Archelaus did that, since he was not allowed to participate at the Greek Olympics, on the bases of being a foreigner. Please see Thracymachus on this matter. "No one had forgotten that Alexander I, known ironically as ‘the philhellene’, had been debarred from the Olympic Games until he manufactured a pedigree connecting the Argeads with the ancient Argive kings". [p.7] On p.9 Green refers to this Argive link as ‘fictitious’, which proves that Alexander was not a Greek. To find more on the Macedonian ethnicity of Alexander I please visit Herodotus.

    7) "Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks."

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks. Examples of festivals which were celebrated in Macedonia as well as in other Greek states are the "Hetaireidia", the "Apellaia" and many more."

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This is not a proof that the Macedonians were Greek. How many festivals (Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, etc) are today being shared by many ethnically different nations? Are we supposed to say that since the Portuguese and the French Catholics observe same traditions and religious festivals, they are of a single Portuguese or French or whatever ethnic origin? Of course not, the modern Greek argument is fruitless. This is a proof that even if the Macedonians and Greek have shared certain customs (like many other nations can do today as in the past, especially bordering nations), that in itself is not a proof that those Macedonians were Greek, just like the Portuguese are not French, and vise versa.

    8) "Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks Several temples dedicated to the Greek Gods have beem discovered in Macedonia and especially in Dion the religious center of ancient Macedonians. It is obvious that the Macedonians worshiped the 12 Olympian Gods as the rest of the Greeks The Gods were "living" on Mount Olympos which happens to be located in Macedonia. Would that be possible if there was hostility between Macedonians and Greeks? This is another proof that Macedonia was considered a part of Greece".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This statement is a complete lie. Not only that the Macedonians did not worshiped the Greek gods, but also there is not a single temple discovered on the territory of Macedonia which resembles the temples in Greece. Alexander sacrificed to "Macedonian gods according to ancestral rituals, and ordered a torch-race and gymnastic contest to follow." Ulrich Wilken’s Alexander the Great: p. 187, line 15, we read the following passage referring to his advances to the Hyphasis:

    "Alexander built twelve great tower-like altars on the nearer side of the river. We have been informed by those who refer everything to Babylonia, that this was for the twelve signs of the zodiac. In reality it was the twelve gods of Macedonia to whom these altars were raised."

    Key words are: Twelve Macedonian gods, not Greek. The fact that the Macedonians had their own gods, does prove that they had different religion from the Greeks who worshiped different gods. To this we can add the writings of the ancient author Plutarch:

    'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216]

    Macedonians had their own Gods and religion, separate from the Greeks. Macedonian Ares is a Macedonian god, which the ancient Greeks here compare to their own Ares. The fact that they call it "Macedonian Ares" clearly states that it is not the Greek God Ares, but a Macedonian god equivalent to the Greek Ares, whose name they had substituted with Ares. This phenomena when the ancient Greeks substitute the names of the foreign gods with names of their own gods, is called interpretatio graeca. In the ancient Greek texts we also find the Greeks referring to one Egyptian God as Egyptian Athena. Of course, the real name of this Egyptian god can not be Athena (just like the name of the Macedonian god above was not Ares), since the Egyptians didn't worship Greek gods The ancient Greek writers here use interpretatio graeca in order to better relate to their audience the magnitude of the Macedonian and Egyptian gods, both foreign to them. The above quote, furthermore, clearly shows that not only Macedonians had their own gods and religion distinct from the Greeks, but they also subdued Greece.

    9) "Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture All the buildings found in the Macedonia region have many common characteristics with the ones found in the rest of Greece. Palaces, temples, theaters markets are characteristic samples of ancient Greek architecture".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Notice how the Greek propaganda uses the word "similar", not the same. In fact, the Macedonians can easily be distinguished from the Greeks with the striking differences in the architecture. First, there is not one religious temple discovered at the territory of Macedonia that resembles the religious temples in Greece, a proof by itself that the Macedonians had a different religion from the Greeks. Second, the Macedonians had a distinct burial customs than the Greeks. The architecture of the so-called "Macedonian Tomb" which is found throughout Macedonia, was uncommon in Greece, until Greece was subdued by the Macedonians. This shows that the Macedonians had imported their distinctive burial architecture in Greece. Third, the Greek artifacts of Mycenean Greece are found on the whole territory of Greece up to the border that separates northern Greece (Thessaly) from Macedonia. This again shows that the Macedonians were different from the Greeks and did not share Greek material culture, just like the Greeks did not share the "Macedonian tombs" until the Macedonians occupied Greece. Professor Eugene Borza had done a detailed research on the difference between the Greek and Macedonian material culture and dedicated few chapters on the matter in his In the Shadow of Olympus.

    10) "The famous ancient Greek play writer Euripidis wrote and originally presented most of his plays in Pella, the capital of Macedonia. How was that possible if the audience spoke a different language?"

    GREEK CLAIM: "The famous ancient Greek play writer Euripidis wrote and originally presented most of his plays in Pella, the capital of Macedonia. How was that possible if the audience spoke a different language?"

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: There is nothing strange that the Macedonian kings and the Macedonian nobility in Pella attended Euripides’s Greek play. After all, they admired the Greek culture, spoke the Greek language (next to Macedonian), and commissioned Euripides to write the play. From Curtius Rufus and the trial of Philotas, we know that next to Macedonian, the Greek language was also spoken as a second language at the Macedonian court, and used in diplomacy. Nothing strange in that, since Greek was an international language in antiquity, just like English is today. There are other such examples in the world. The Russian czars and the Russian nobility admired the French plays and spoke French at their court, and today many plays in English are performed in many non-English speaking countries, since the audience would understand it. Some operas are in Italian, and yet are performed everyday in many different countries and in front of audiences that do not speak Italian at all. In the heart of the German-speaking world, in Vienna, the Italian Sallieri wrote his plays in Italian. Therefore, the above Greek claim does not prove that the Macedonians were Greek, just like the Russian czars were not French, and the Austrians were not Italian. We should also add that the Macedonian king Archelaus, which commissioned Euripides to write the play for him, was not considered to be Greek. The Greeks called him a barbarian, a label that they reserved to all non-Greeks. See Thrasymachus on that matter.

    11) "Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony, an institution which was open only to Greeks."

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amphictyony, an institution which was open only to Greeks."

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Macedonia was not a member of the Delphic Amphictyony. The Macedonian king Phillip did not represent Macedonia as a nation in the Delphic Amphictyony. Phillip's membership of the Delphic Amphictyony was a personal gift to him, and not to the nation of Macedonia. It’s true that the Amphictyonic League was only open to Greeks, but the membership to this league was also open to other foreigners as well (next to the Macedonian kings) - Persian envoys and /or commanders! Therefore, the fact that some Macedonians participated in the Greek Amphictyonic League, does not prove that they were Greeks, since foreigners like certain Persians could participate as well, next to the Greeks. When we add to that the fact that Macedonia did not belong to the Greek Hellenic League as well (in which every Greek city-state participated), the conclusion is complete – Macedonia was not part of the ancient Greece, but it’s northern neighbor. "The Greek states were to make a common peace and alliance with one another, and constitute themselves into a federal Hellenic League. Simultaneously, the league was to form a separate alliance with Macedonia, though Macedonia itself would not be a league member." Peter Green – Alexander of Macedon [p.86]

    12) "When Alexander arrived in Asia he visited the ancient Greek town of Troy (Troia), where he sacrificed to the Greek Gods to help him in his quest."

    GREEK CLAIM: "When Alexander arrived in Asia he visited the ancient Greek town of Troy (Troia), where he sacrificed to the Greek Gods to help him in his quest".

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This quote does not prove at all that Alexander or the Macedonians were Greek. We also know for a fact that Alexander also sacrificed to Persian, Egyptian, and Indian gods, next to the Greek gods. Does that fact also make him Persian, or Egyptian? Of course not, what was most important to him was his Macedonian nationality and the Macedonian gods. The quote below is taken from Ulrich Wilken’s Alexander the Great: Alexander sacrificed to "Macedonian gods according to ancestral rituals, and ordered a torch-race and gymnastic contest to follow." p. 187, line 15, we read the following passage referring to his advances to the Hyphasis:

    "Alexander built twelve great tower-like altars on the nearer side of the river. We have been informed by those who refer everything to Babylonia, that this was for the twelve signs of the zodiac. In reality it was the twelve gods of Macedonia to whom these altars were raised."

    Key words are: Twelve Macedonian gods, not Greek. Based on the religion, we can not conclude that the Macedonians were Greek, since they had their own Macedonian gods. The fact that the Macedonians had their own gods, does prove that they had different religion from the Greeks who worshiped different gods. To this we can add the writings of the ancient author Plutarch:

    'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216]

    Macedonians had their own Gods and religion, separate from the Greeks. Macedonian Ares is a Macedonian god, which the ancient Greeks here compare to their own Ares. The fact that they call it "Macedonian Ares" clearly states that it is not the Greek God Ares, but a Macedonian god equivalent to the Greek Ares, whose name they had substituted with Ares. This phenomena when the ancient Greeks substitute the names of the foreign gods with names of their own gods, is called interpretatio graeca. In the ancient Greek texts we also find the Greeks referring to one Egyptian God as Egyptian Athena. Of course, the real name of this Egyptian god can not be Athena (just like the name of the Macedonian god above was not Ares), since the Egyptians didn't worship Greek gods The ancient Greek writers here use interpretatio graeca in order to better relate to their audience the magnitude of the Macedonian and Egyptian gods, both foreign to them. The above statement furthermore, clearly shows us that Greece was subdued by the Macedonians.

    13) "A part from the "Treaty of Alliance" between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal."

    GREEK CLAIM: A part from the "Treaty of Alliance" between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal. "This is a sworn treaty made between us, Hannibal the general, Mago, Myrkan, Barmokar and all other Carthaginian senators present with him, and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of Kleomachos, the envoy whom King Philip, son of Demetrios, sent to us on behalf of himself, and the Macedonians and allies, on the other side. `In the presence of Zeus, Hera and Apollon; in the presence of the Genius of Carthage;...and in the presence of all the gods who possess Carthage; and in the presence of all the Gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Hellas; and in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath. Thus said Hannibal the general and all the Carthaginian senators along with him and the Carthaginian soldiers:...That King Philip and the Macedonians and the rest of the Hellenes... (Polybios 7.9.1-7)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: It is a fact that Polybius being a Greek, did not regard the Macedonians as Greek. It’s enough to bring few passages of his books. Polibius reports on the speech made by Agelaus of Naupactus at the first conference in the presence of the King and the allies. He spoke as follows:

    "I therefore beg you all to be on your guard against this danger, and I appeal especially to King Philip. [Macedonian king Philip V] For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would if it were a part of your own dominions. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies in case of attack, and foreigners will be the less inclined to plot against your throne, because they will be discouraged by the loyalty of the Greeks towards you." [p.300] book 5.104 A clear distinction between Greece (to protect every province of Greece) and Macedonia (as you would if it were a part of your own dominions). Furthermore, the Macedonians were still wearing down the Greeks even into the times of Philip V. In Book XVIII, 1, Philip V from Macedon invites Flamininus (Roman commander) to explain what he, Philip, should do to have peace:

    "The Roman general replied that his duty dictated an answer which was both simple and clear. He demanded that Philip should withdraw from the whole of Greece, restore to each of the states the prisoners and deserters he was holding, hand over to the Romans the region of Illyria which he had seized after the treaty that had been made in Epirus, and so on...." "Philip should withdraw from the whole of Greece," Flamininus, the Roman general, clearly separates Macedonia from Greece, and demands from the Macedonian king to withdraw from Greece into his own Macedonia, a fact we again find in Polybius. Such evidence does not allow us to consider Macedonia as part of Greece.

    14) "Alexander's speech to his solders one year before his death"

    GREEK CLAIM: Alexander's speech to his solders one year before his death I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily in peace. All mortals from now on shall live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions. I do not separate people, as many narrow-minded others do, into Hellenes and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens, I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me, each foreigner is a Hellene, and each bad Hellene is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, you must not resolve them by taking to arms; you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I shall act as your negotiator.

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: The words of Alexander do not show anywhere that he and the Macedonians were Greek. Notice that Alexander himself states that for him the Greeks (Hellenes) are foreigners. He degrades even further the "bad Hellenes" into barbarians! In other words, Alexander clearly distinguishes between his Macedonians and the Greeks (whom he calls foreigners and barbarians). This quote is not a ‘proof’ that the Macedonians were Greek, when in fact it proves just the opposite.

    15) "The speech of Alexander I when he was admitted to the Olympic games"

    GREEK CLAIM: The speech of Alexander I when he was admitted to the Olympic games: "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon." (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Let us present the circumstances under which this apparent quote was made, and then, we will sift through the argument about the alleged "Greekness" of this Macedonian king. We will prove with facts below, that Alexander I was not a Greek, and as a foreigner was not allowed to participated in the Olympic Games, which were reserved for the Greeks alone.

    1. The year is obviously 480-479 B.C., when the Persian armies were poised to attack Greece. 2. The Greek armies had taken defensive positions at Tempe Pass. 3. The Kingdom of Macedon with Amyntas I, had established a very convenient relationship with Darius I, the King of Persia. Amyntas I, had long before this recognized the suzerainty of Darius I. His daughter Gygea, the sister of Alexander I, had married an Iranian nobleman, and his son Alexander I loyally served his suzerain, continuing to profit by Persian favours and protection. 4. The Kingdom of Macedon enjoyed prosperity and enlarged its own territory. 5. Being a shrewd politician, Alexander plays both cards in this conflict; took care to build bridges towards the Greeks - giving them good advice that would not harm his overlords. And when it became clear that Greek victory could no longer be delayed, he came out in full support of the victors, rendering them services for which he receives the "honor" of "Philhellen" (This appellation appears to swing the pendulum against the Greeks for its apparent and obvious contradiction). 6. With the Persian overlord gone for good, cooperation with his southern neighbors became an essential aim of policy. 7. He, Alexander I, invents this mythical descent from Argos in order to be accepted at the Olympic Games in Athens. 8. Let it be known that there is no evidence whatsoever of any Macedonian claim to a Greek connection before the Persian war.

    Now, let's examine the gravity of the statement, and see if it can withstand the scrutiny of a historical analysis. Let us go point by point, and weigh each statement separately against the political thinking of that time, and place its contents in a comparatively measurable scale.

    a) If Alexander I was Greek, why wasn't he defending the Greek homeland with the rest of the Greeks who at this time were greatly outnumbered? b) What business does he have to serve as Darius' suzerain when the land of the Greeks was under such a treat? And if one finds solace in the fact that many Greek cities in Asia were under such an arrangement with Darius, I must caution you that we are talking about mainland Greece. Here, the Asian barbarian was seldom invited or welcomed, for obvious reasons, of course. c) If Alexander I of Macedon was in fact Greek, we ought to ask ourselves the following question: Would it be prudent, militarily sound and calculated, for the Persian commander Mardonius to chose him, Alexander I, a "Greek" to negotiate for him with the Greeks? One must also bear in mind that Mardonius was not a man of deliberate miscalculations. He was in a position to know who was and who was not Macedonian. Does it make any sense to entrust your negotiations into the hands of a Greek when negotiating with Greeks? I surely do not think so, and most likely, neither did Mardonius. d) If Alexander of Macedon was indeed "Greek", why was he dubbed "proxenos", a public friend of the Greeks? Isn't it kind of odd to call a "Greek" a friend of Greeks? This appellation speaks much louder than what the Greeks like to reveal. e) If he was Greek, why does he feel compelled to prove his Greekness? Why is this compulsion reserved for the Macedonians only? When was the last time that any of the Athenian commanders have proclaimed their Greekness? When did Memnon, Harpalus, Charidemes, Agis, or anyone else for that matter, asserted their Greekness? It is evident that this apparent statement of Alexander I, given to a biographer (Herodotus) carried different ticket, the door to the Olympic games where he was promptly rejected and turned away exactly for that reason and that reason alone: He was not a Greek, and those games were reserved for Greeks (Hellene) only. f) Herodotus speaks of the Thessallians as being the first Greeks to fall under Persian rule in 480 B.C.. Evidence shows that the Persian armies entered Macedonian soil in 492 B.C.. This puts the Persian armies in Macedonia for 12 long years before they entered Greece.

    Therefore, shall we assume then, that the Greeks did not regard Macedonia as their own land? Should we, further, suppose that the Persian armies flew over Macedonia to reach Thessaly? Or, should we conclude that Herodotus was wrong in his calculations? Neither of the above choices is plausible; Greeks knew quite well where Greece's boundaries were, and where the land of the Kingdom of Macedon begins. There is nothing ambiguous about their stand. Olympus was the dividing line, and there was nothing to suggest the opposite. One is hard pressed to arrive at any other conclusion when one bears in mind that Herodotus would not make such a glaring omission. The truth is that Herodotus knew where Greece's line end, and where Macedonian land began. Here is what the "Macedonian Specialist" - Professor Borza, had written regarding this matter:

    "It is clear that the analysis of our earliest-and sole-source cannot produce a consistent and satisfactory sequence of events. My own view is that there is some underlying veracity to the Mt. Vermion reference (as evidenced by the Phrygian connections), that among the Makedones a family of Vermion background emerged as pre-eminent, but that the Argive context is mythic, perhaps a bit of fifth-century B.C. propaganda (as I argue in the next chapter). To deny such fables and attribute them to contemporary Macedonian propaganda may appear minimalistic. But given the historical milieu in which such stories were spawned and then adorned, the denial of myth seems prudent."

    "The Temenidae [the Greek origin] in Macedon are an invention of the Macedonians themselves, intended in part to give credence to Alexander I's claims of Hellenic ancestry, attached to and modifying some half-buried progenitor stories that had for a long time existed among the Macedonians concerning their own origins. The revised version was transmitted without criticism or comment by Herodotus. Thucydides (2-99.3; 5.80.2) acquired the Argive lineage tale from Herodotus, or from Macedonian-influenced sources, and transmitted it. His is not an independent version. [There is no hard evidence (pace Hammond, HM i: 4) that Thucydides ever visited Macedonia, but it makes no difference; Thucydides is reflecting the official version of things.] What emerged in the fifth century is a Macedonian-inspired tale of Argive origins for the Argead house, an account that can probably be traced to its source, Alexander I (for which see Chapter 5 below). The Temenidae must disappear from history, making superfluous all discussion of them as historical figures." (Borza - In the Shadow of Olympus)

    "Why is it that no Spartan or Athenian or Argive felt constrained to prove to the others that he and his family were Helenes? But Macedonian kings seem hard put to argue in behalf of their Hellenic ancestry in the fifth century B.C., and that circumstance is telling. Even if one were to accept that all the Herodotian stories about Alexander were true, why did the Greeks, who normally were knowledgeable about matters of ethnic kinship, not already know that the Macedonian monarchy was Greek? But--following Herodotus--the stade- race competitors at Olympia thought the Macedonian was a foreigner (Hdt. 5.22: barbaros) Second, for his effort on behalf of the Greek cause against the Persians Alexander is known as "Philhellene". Now this is kind of odd to call a Greek a"friend of the Greeks". "This title", writes Borza, "is normally reserved for non-Greeks".

    Borza concludes: "It is prudent to reject the stories of the ill--fated Persian embassy to Amyntas's court, Alexander's midnight ride at Plataea, and his participation in the Olympic Games as tales derived from Alexander himself (or from some official court version of things)." [This is self-explanatory. Alexander I was a Macedonian, not a Greek]

    16) "What was the origin of ancient Macedonians?"

    GREEK CLAIM: What was the origin of ancient Macedonians? "The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer from Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor of Thessalians, who spoke Greek." (Professor N G L Hammond, University of Cambridge, UK, 1993)

    "This was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrants of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians" (Professor W J Woodhouse, University of Sydney, Australia, 1917)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This view of the supposed Greek origin of the Macedonians, which originated in Droysen in the 19th century and later advertised by others including Hammond and Woodhouse, had been proven incorrect many times in the extensive studies on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians by Professor Eugene Borza and Harvard’s Department of History chair person Ernst Badian, and rejected on such basis. Hammond had been proven to be incorrect not only in the case of the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, but also on other matters regarding the history of Macedonia in Makedonika and In the Shadow of Olympus by Borza. Here is what Borza had written on Hammond’s conclusion:

    "Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonians spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". (In the Shadow of Olympus p.92-93)

    "As a question of method: why would [Macedonia] an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"

    The Temenidae [the Greek origin] in Macedon are an invention of the Macedonians themselves, intended in part to give credence to Alexander I's claims of Hellenic ancestry, attached to and modifying some half-buried progenitor stories that had for a long time existed among the Macedonians concerning their own origins. The revised version was transmitted without criticism or comment by Herodotus. Thucydides (2-99.3; 5.80.2) acquired the Argive lineage tale from Herodotus, or from Macedonian-influenced sources, and transmitted it. His is not an independent version. [There is no hard evidence (pace Hammond, HM i: 4) that Thucydides ever visited Macedonia, but it makes no difference; Thucydides is reflecting the official version of things.] What emerged in the fifth century is a Macedonian-inspired tale of Argive origins for the Argead house, an account that can probably be traced to its source, Alexander I. The Temenidae must disappear from history, making superfluous all discussion of them as historical figures. (In the Shadow of Olympus)



    MODERN SOURCES

    1) John Pentland Mahaffy

    GREEK CLAIM: "Alexander's Empire" by John Pentland Mahaffy (University of Dublin) P 8 "... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. " (John Pentland Mahaffy, Alexander's empire, G Putnam's sons, London, 1881)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This quote does not show anywhere that the Macedonians were Greek. We know that Alexander accepted and spread the standard koine Greek as a spoken language for his multi-ethnic empire, the only international language on which the whole Mediterranean world had already communicated even prior to the conquest of the Macedonians (just like English is international language today). Alexander was smart enough to keep this international Greek language for the Persians, Egyptians, Jews and all the nations of his empire to communicate. Forcing all those people to learn now a new foreign Macedonian language would have only provoked an additional hatred and multi-ethnic resistance for the Macedonian occupation of Asia, Egypt, and Greece, which the Macedonians obviously wanted to avoid. Unlike the Roman Empire, there was no single powerful centralized Macedonian Empire, but three main Macedonian kingdoms (Macedonia, Asia, Egypt) which were fragile and in conflict occasionally among each other, and the Macedonians needed such language standardization to help them maintain their power. That of course, does not mean that although the Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, Jews, now communicated in Greek, that they all turned into Greeks, just like the African nations did not turn into French and English, just because of their usage of those two languages to communicate among themselves.

    What is for certain however, is that Alexander spoke Macedonian with his own Macedonian troops and used Greek in addressing the Asians and Greeks. After all, the Macedonians were his kinsmen (precisely the way he calls them), not the Greeks. The ancient sources specifically refer to Macedonian as a language and not as a dialect of Greek, and Alexander himself specifically calls the Macedonian language - "our native language". During the trial of Philotas, Alexander himself clearly distinguishes his native Macedonian language from the Greek language which was used at the Macedonian court as well as a second language in diplomacy, a fact we find in the Philotas trial (Q. Curtius Rufus).

    The conclusion is clear - that the Macedonian kings admired a foreign culture (Greek in this case) does not prove they were Greek. Similarly, the Russian czars admired the French culture and French was even spoken on the Russian court. The African nations also use international English language to communicate among themselves. That of course does not prove that the Russian czars were French, nor that the Africans were English. Therefore, the above quote from the Greek internet page can not be used as a ‘proof’ that the Macedonians were Greek. See the complete evidence on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians.

    2) Peter Green’s "Alexander The Great"

    GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonia as a whole was tended to remain in isolation from the rest of Greece." P20; "For the first time he (Philip II) started to understand how Macedonia's outdated institutions of feudalism and autocratic monarchy, so despised by the rest of Greece, might prove a source of strength when dealing with such opponents." Page 29; "In less than four years he (Philip II) had transformed Macedonia from a backward and primitive kingdom to one of the most powerful states in Greece." Page 37

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Here we find more examples of misleading quotes that the Greeks want to pass as a "proof" that Macedonia was a "Greek land". Peter Green is quoted only on quotes that suit their purpose, and they avoid (again purposely), the overwhelming majority of Green’s quotes, i.e. the ones that clearly separate the Macedonians from the Greeks. In fact, Green does not consider the Macedonians to be Greek at all and we will present that below.

    GREEK CLAIM: "Like most intellectuals with a racialst axe to grind, Aristotle, drew facts from geopolitics or 'natural law' in support of his thesis. In a celebrated frangment he counselled Alexander 'to be a hegemon [leader] to the Greeks and a depot to the barbarians to look after the former as after frinds and relatives and to deal to the latter as with beasts and plants'." (Peter Green, "Alexander the Great", Weidenfield and Nicholson, 1971). "It was now that the veteran Athenian pamphleteer Isokratis published his Address to Philip calling for a Panhelleinc crusade against Persia under Philip's leadership." Page 40.

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Here, the Greek propaganda gives us a fragment from page 40, however, it purposely avoids commenting on what else had Peter Green written on page 49, 50, and 157, after Isocrates published his Address to Philip calling for a Panhelleinc crusade. Here is the full picture:

    a) Isocrates’ letter to Philip II where he, Isocrates refers to Philip "as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom to consider Hellas your fatherland" Green calls this a "rhetorical hyperbole"."Indeed, taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement". [p. 49] "Its ethnic conceit was only equaled by its naivety" [p.49]

    b) "And though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage (a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress." [p.50]

    c)"This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? [p. 157]

    An obvious question, since Alexander relied on his Macedonians, not Greeks to conquer Persia. Let us now see the all of Green’s quotes, the ones that the Greek propaganda did not show, and which showed us that Professor Green does not consider the Macedonians to be Greek. We can see a clear ethnic separation between Macedonians and the Greeks by Green. Thus, we have proven that the modern Greek's assertion and propaganda had been selective and indeed misleading. To see the complete evidence on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians please click here.

    3) "A History Of Macedonia" By Malcom Errington

    GREEK CLAIM: FROM "A HISTORY OF MACEDONIA" BY MALCOM ERRINGTON (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany) Page 3

    "That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain." (Malcom Errington "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, 1993)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Malcolm Errington's book if full of distortions and serious omissions for which we dedicated a special page in exposing them.

    4) "The Western Experience" By Mortimer Chambers

    GREEK CLAIM: From "The Western Experience" By Mortimer Chambers (University of California), Raymond Grew (University of Michigan), David Herlihy (Harvard University), Theodore Rabb (Princeton University) and Isser Woloch (Columbia University), Page 79

    "THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA: Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northern Greece. Its emergence as a hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great". ("The Western Experience" (Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This is another example of a typical western source, (just like Erringon above) which is ignorant to the ancient testimony, and makes Macedonia part of Greece, despite the overwhelming ancient evidence that clearly shows that the Macedonians were not ancient Greeks. Notice that this book does not specializes in Macedonian studies alone. Fact is that they were also ignorant to all of the modern sources as well, that specialize in the ethnicity of the Macedonians that clearly proved that the Macedonians were not Greek. It is good however, that the numbers of such inaccurate books is low.



    ANCIENT SOURCES

    1) Polybios (Polibius)

    GREEK CLAIM: In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the kinsmen Macedonians and their ruler, Philip, about the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people (Romans),...but now if you invite them do not you see that you invite them against your ownself and the whole of Hellas....And does it worth to ally with the barbarians against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most influential amongst yourselves oppose that then stay neutral and do not side with the unjust. (Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania)

    "How highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Hellas? For who is not aware that Hellas would have constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?" (The Histories of Polybios, IX, 35, 2)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: This quote by Polybius does not say at all or even less "prove" that the Macedonians were Greek. It simply says that the Macedonians should be praised for protecting Greece from the barbarian attacks. There is nothing strange in that. Since Greece was conquered by Macedonia (where the Macedonian garrisons were established to ensure that conquest), it is clear that the Macedonians would protect every inch not only of their own Macedonia, but also of every land that they had conquered (Egypt, Asia, and Greece included). To anybody who admired ancient Greek culture, that was a thanks to the Macedonians that have preserved it from the barbarians. But the Greek propaganda however, had purposely avoided (once again) telling us what else had Polybius said. The overwhelming majority of his quotes in fact show quite clearly that Polibius did not regard the Macedonians as Greek and he distinguishes between the two nations.

    2) Herodotus.

    GREEK CLAIM: "Now that the men of this family are Hellenes, sprung from Perdiccas, as they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia" (Herodotus, The Histories 8.43); "Tell your king who sent you how his Hellenic viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably... " (Herodotus V, 20, 4); "Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Hellenes, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know" (Herodotus V, 22, 1)

    MACEDONIAN REPLY: Herodotus’s stories above regarding the legend of the supposed Greek (Temenidae) origin of the Macedonian kings (not of the Macedonian nation), have been analyzed in great detail by Professors Borza, Green, and Badian, and rejected as propaganda designed by the Macedonian kings for the Greeks on the south with a specific purpose. In fact, Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greek, but a distinct nation.

    3) Thoukididis (Thoucydides).

    GREEK CLAIM: "The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos" (Thucididis 99,3); "In all there were about three thousand Hellenic heavy infantry, accompanied by all the Macedonian cavalry with the Chalcidians, near one thousand strong, besides an immense

  6. #46
    Avatar von Macedonian

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    Zitat Zitat von Schiptar
    In der Zwischenzeit, bis ich alle von Dir angegebenen Quell durch habe, verweise ich mal auf ein paar andere Leute (ich hab mir das noch nicht ganz durchgelesen, also mußt Du nicht annehmen, daß ich 100% mit denen übereinstimme):
    :arrow: http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/Gree...tWebsites.html
    ...
    http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/ - Lieber Schiptar, willst du ''spielen'' oder diskutieren?

    Gruß
    Macedonian

  7. #47
    Avatar von Schiptar

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    Strabo Geography 7.7
    ''There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis. Then, a little further on, Strabo mentions Cypsela and the Nebrus River, and also describes a sort of parallelogram in which the whole of Macedonia lies.
    Strabo kam aus Kleinasien und schrieb dieses Werk 14 n.Chr.! Über drei Jahrhunderte nach Alexander dem Großen, nach jahrhundertelangem Hellenismus. Ich dachte, wir reden hier darüber, wer oder was die Makedonen vor den Siegeszügen Alexanders waren?

    Polybios Histories 9.35

    "Not being able to say anything in defence of
    B.C. 279.
    any of these acts, you talk pompously about your having resisted the invasion of Delphi by the barbarians, and allege that for this Greece ought to be grateful to you. But if for this one service some gratitude is owing to the Aetolians; what high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? For that Greece would have been continually involved in great dangers, if we had not had the Macedonians and the ambition of their kings as a barrier, who is ignorant? And there is a very striking proof of this.
    Defeat and death of Ptolemy Ceraunus in the battle with the Gauls, B.C. 280. See Pausan. 10.19.7.
    For no sooner had the Gauls conceived a contempt for the Macedonians, by their victory over Ptolemy Ceraunus, than, thinking the rest of no account, Brennus promptly marched into the middle of Greece. And this would often have happened if the Macedonians had not been on our frontiers.
    Das hier sagt nichts über die Ethnizität aus.

    Herodotus, The Histories 8.43

    The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.
    Ja und? "Dorian AND Macedonian". Dorer und Makedonen. Nicht Dorer = Makedonen.

  8. #48
    Avatar von Schiptar

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    Zitat Zitat von Macedonian
    http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/ - Lieber Schiptar, willst du ''spielen'' oder diskutieren?
    Die Argumentation dieser Leute ist natürlich einseitig zugespitzt und sie bedienen sich dieser hysterischen Sprachweise von wegen "griechische Propaganda", "griechische Lügen" (die man in diesem Forum halt v.a. von Dir kennt, wenn man "griechisch" durch "fyromisch" ersetzt), aber sie ziehen namhafte Wissenschaftler heran und ihre Argumente lassen sich nicht als sinnlos von der Hand weisen.

  9. #49

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    Zitat Zitat von Gugica

    Nazikindchen...du schieß echt den vogel ab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Als nächstes behauptest auchnoch das makedonien genauso wie kosovo ursprünglich albanisches land ist und die serben euch von dort vertrieben haben


    Jungchen...geh schlafen und wach bitte nichtmehr auf!!!
    Du würdest allen nen gefallen damit tun!!!
    Ich sehe die Albaner als Rest eines riegisen Ur-volkes des Balkans...und ihr Serben und besonders Montenegriner seid Halbalbaner...so wie der ganze Balkan ein bislle albanisch ist..

  10. #50
    Avatar von Macedonian

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    Strabo Geography 7.7
    ''There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis. Then, a little further on, Strabo mentions Cypsela and the Nebrus River, and also describes a sort of parallelogram in which the whole of Macedonia lies.
    Auch wenn das Zitat von Strabo keine Aussage über die Ethnische Herkunft der antiken Makedonen gibt, zeigt dieses Zitat welches Verständnis die Menschen 14 n. Chr. über Makedonien und das Verhältnis Makedoniens zum restlichen Hellas hatten. Makedonien und Hellas werden von Strabo als eine geographische Einheit gesehen. Dieser Punkt sollte in der allgemeinen Diskussion berücksichtigt werden.

    Zitat Zitat von Schiptar
    Strabo kam aus Kleinasien und schrieb dieses Werk 14 n.Chr.! Über drei Jahrhunderte nach Alexander dem Großen, nach jahrhundertelangem Hellenismus. Ich dachte, wir reden hier darüber, wer oder was die Makedonen vor den Siegeszügen Alexanders waren?
    Da kann man nur sagen, dass eben auch die Korinther die Lakedämonier (so wurden die Spartaner bezeichnet) die Epdiaurier auch als Makedonier bezeichnet werden. Sie sind alle Dorier und Makedonier!!! Es gibt also keinen Unterschied.

    Gruß
    Macedonian

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