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Kratka Istorija Bosanskih Srba

Erstellt von B0šNjAk, 26.12.2009, 01:26 Uhr · 479 Antworten · 35.953 Aufrufe

  1. #241
    Avatar von Koma

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    Zitat Zitat von Slavic Beitrag anzeigen
    To ti meni kazes a ocigledno neznas da je to srpski grb u tvojoj signaturi...
    zar te nije sramota, stvarno ispadas glup...

  2. #242

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    Beitrag

    The letters of the Bosnian nobles of the Kotromanic dynasty in which we clearly see how they felt their ethnicity to be Serbian








    All the above mentioned letters were written in the cyrillic script.There is a piece of the Zografic bible for those who think cyrillic and glagolictic are interchangeable (11th century).





  3. #243

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    Stjepan II Kotromanic, Ban (1314-1353) The isolated and mountaneous Dinaric region of Bosnia emerges in the 12th century as a sort of "no-man's land", intermittently claimed by Hungarian and Byzantine rulers, but populated chiefly by Serbo-Croatian stock and administered by a relatively independent local nobility, the most prominent of which held the title of "ban". Some more information comes from the turn of the 12th century and time of ban Kulin, in the context of his resistance to political and ecclesiastic pressures from Vatican and Hungary, and cordial relations with the Dubrovnik Republic; but data remains scarce for the next century, though the political pattern appears simliar.
    Documented changes are evident with the Bosnian ban that was to found of a more cohesive medieval state, Stjepan (pr. STYE-pahn) II Kotromanic. His father, ban Stjepan I Kotroman, was married to king Dragutin Nemanjic's daughter; this direct Nemanjic lineage would enable his son to claim dynastic continuity at later times of turmoil and trouble in the central Serbian state.
    A richly decorated "stecak".
    Until 1322 Stjepan lived in the shadow of the powerful Croatian noble family Subic. With Hungarian support he secured his power over the entire state, maintaining good relations with the Hungarian court after the eventual downfall of the Subic brothers. Taking advantage of strife among the Croatian nobility within the Hungarian state, he extended his boundaries westward (Neretva river marshland), and gained control over the larger part of Zahumlje. At the same time, Bosnia grew in strength internally, especially in mining and trade; in fact, the growth of mining in the area was such that by the early 15th century Serbia and Bosnia accounted for more than one-fifth of Europe's silver output. Stjepan was the first Bosnian dynast to mint money - silver dinars engraved by Ragusan die-cutters based on models from czar Dusan's Serbia. However, the state structure needed to support this was very loose - more so than in Serbia - and largely still dependent on the personal loyalty of the magnates to the central ruler.

    Despite the staunchly Catholic stance of Bosnia's overlord Hungary, the state remained relatively multiconfessional, with no state Church and three Christian communities generally coexisting: Orthodox in the east (mosty Podrinje and Hum regions), the rest divided roughly by Catholics in the urban, and followers of the so-called Bosnian Church in rural areas. Ban Stjepan gave personally a certain reflection of this: born Orthodox, he yielded later to papal pressures and converted to Catholicism, but displayed institutional tolerance of the Bosnian Church. Incidentally, much has been speculated on the nature of this religious organization that was to disappear with the Bosnian state in the 15th century, and it is typically assumed that these were members of the dualist Bogumil heretic sect that migrated under persecution westward through the Balkans. Some modern scholarship challenges that - relating them more to independent-minded and Slavic-oriented Catholic monastic orders - and citing the doctrinary orthodoxy of their few surviving texts. Some of these - e.g. Divos' Gospel and Hval's Collection, with their masterfully illuminated liturgical Cyrillic texts - represent remarkable, but unfortunately rare, monuments of the Bosnian Church.

    Stjepan's achievements, though suspended for a while following his death, were later to be revived under his able son Tvrtko.


  4. #244
    Avatar von B0šNjAk

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    Izvorni spomenici nisu sačuvani, već samo svedočanstva o njegovom postojanju.

  5. #245
    Avatar von B0šNjAk

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    Zitat Zitat von Slavic Beitrag anzeigen


    Stjepan II Kotromanic, Ban (1314-1353) The isolated and mountaneous Dinaric region of Bosnia emerges in the 12th century as a sort of "no-man's land", intermittently claimed by Hungarian and Byzantine rulers, but populated chiefly by Serbo-Croatian stock and administered by a relatively independent local nobility, the most prominent of which held the title of "ban". Some more information comes from the turn of the 12th century and time of ban Kulin, in the context of his resistance to political and ecclesiastic pressures from Vatican and Hungary, and cordial relations with the Dubrovnik Republic; but data remains scarce for the next century, though the political pattern appears simliar.
    Documented changes are evident with the Bosnian ban that was to found of a more cohesive medieval state, Stjepan (pr. STYE-pahn) II Kotromanic. His father, ban Stjepan I Kotroman, was married to king Dragutin Nemanjic's daughter; this direct Nemanjic lineage would enable his son to claim dynastic continuity at later times of turmoil and trouble in the central Serbian state.
    A richly decorated "stecak".
    Until 1322 Stjepan lived in the shadow of the powerful Croatian noble family Subic. With Hungarian support he secured his power over the entire state, maintaining good relations with the Hungarian court after the eventual downfall of the Subic brothers. Taking advantage of strife among the Croatian nobility within the Hungarian state, he extended his boundaries westward (Neretva river marshland), and gained control over the larger part of Zahumlje. At the same time, Bosnia grew in strength internally, especially in mining and trade; in fact, the growth of mining in the area was such that by the early 15th century Serbia and Bosnia accounted for more than one-fifth of Europe's silver output. Stjepan was the first Bosnian dynast to mint money - silver dinars engraved by Ragusan die-cutters based on models from czar Dusan's Serbia. However, the state structure needed to support this was very loose - more so than in Serbia - and largely still dependent on the personal loyalty of the magnates to the central ruler.

    Despite the staunchly Catholic stance of Bosnia's overlord Hungary, the state remained relatively multiconfessional, with no state Church and three Christian communities generally coexisting: Orthodox in the east (mosty Podrinje and Hum regions), the rest divided roughly by Catholics in the urban, and followers of the so-called Bosnian Church in rural areas. Ban Stjepan gave personally a certain reflection of this: born Orthodox, he yielded later to papal pressures and converted to Catholicism, but displayed institutional tolerance of the Bosnian Church. Incidentally, much has been speculated on the nature of this religious organization that was to disappear with the Bosnian state in the 15th century, and it is typically assumed that these were members of the dualist Bogumil heretic sect that migrated under persecution westward through the Balkans. Some modern scholarship challenges that - relating them more to independent-minded and Slavic-oriented Catholic monastic orders - and citing the doctrinary orthodoxy of their few surviving texts. Some of these - e.g. Divos' Gospel and Hval's Collection, with their masterfully illuminated liturgical Cyrillic texts - represent remarkable, but unfortunately rare, monuments of the Bosnian Church.

    Stjepan's achievements, though suspended for a while following his death, were later to be revived under his able son Tvrtko.


    De ti sebi to prevedi, pa skontaj o cemu pise
    Crkve Bosanske, a ne Crkve Pravoslavne

    I svagdje ti pise Bosna, Srbija se spominje uvjek kao drzava u komsiliku..

  6. #246
    Avatar von B0šNjAk

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    Al skim ja ovdje naglabam? S laikom koji misli da je Ljiljan Srpski grb..

  7. #247
    Avatar von B0šNjAk

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    Zitat Zitat von Sultan Mehmed Fatih Beitrag anzeigen
    Kada Porfirogenet u svom politickom prirucniku "De Administrando Imperio" nabraja naseljene gradove u pojedinim zemljama on uvijek prvo navede zemlju pa onda naseljene gradove u njoj. Nekoliko primjera: Kada navodi naseljene gradove u Zahumlju on kaze: "In the territory of Zachumli are the inhabited cities of Stagnon,Mokriskik..." "U Zahumlju (zemlja) su naseljeni gradovi Stagnon,Mokriskik...(gradovi)" Kada govori o naseljenim gradovima u Paganiji: "In Pagania are the inhabited cities of Mokron,Beroullia..." "U Paganiji (zemlja) su naseljeni gradovi Mokron,Beroullia....(gradovi)" Kada govori o Travuniji i Konavlima kaze da su Konavli podredjeni Travuniji ali jasno naglasava i kaze da je to sada jedna zemlja sto se vidi i iz toga kako nabraja gradove: "In the territory of Terbounia and Kanali are the inhabited cities Terbounia,Ormos...." "U Travuniji i Konavlima (zemlja) ( su naseljeni gradovi Travunija,Ormos...(gradovi)"

    Kada govori o naseljenim gradovima u Srbiji i Bosni on kaze: "In baptized Serbia are the inhabited cities of Destikon,Tzernabouskei... and in the territory of Bosona Katera and Desnik" "U krstenoj Srbiji (zemlja) su naseljeni gradovi Destikon,Tzernabouskei...(gradovi),a u Bosni (zemlja) Katera i Desnik (gradovi).

    Pridjeve "krstena" i "nekrstena" ispred Srbije i Hrvatske koristi iz samo jednog razloga,da bi na taj nacin razlikovao zemlje iz kojih se Srbi i Hrvati doseljuju na Balkan.

    Tako,kada govori o "nekrstenoj Srbiji" i "nekrstenoj Hrvatskoj" govori o prapostojbinama Srba i Hrvata van Balkana u kojima su oni zivjeli kao nekrsteni,a kada govori o "krstenoj Srbiji" i "krstenoj Hrvatskoj" govori o Srbiji i Hrvatskoj na Balkanu u kojima su oni pokrsteni.

    Pridjevi "krstena" i "nekrstena" ispred Srbije i Hrvatske Porfirogenet koristi samo zbog toga da bi razlikovao njihove prapostojbine od njihovih novih stanista,i prapostojbine i nova stanista Srba i Hrvata naziva isto : Srbija i Hrvatska,ali ih razlikuje jedino po pridjevima "krstena" i "nekrstena" Kraj price. Dakle,nema apsolutno nikakve dileme da Porfirogenet navodi Srbiju i Bosnu kao dvije razlicite zemlje.

    Npr. ne navodi apsolutno nigdje da je Heraklije nastanio Srbe na podrucju Bosne,iako o tome u istom poglavlju vrlo precizno govori za sva druga podrucja,pa kaze da su oni nastanjivani i u Srbiji i u Zahumlju i u Paganiji i Travuniji i Konavlima,ali ih ne navodi u Bosni.


    Zato je Nada Klaic apsolutno u pravu kada konstatuje:"....Posve razumljivo da Cirkovicu za njegovu teoriju o srpstvu Bosne ne mogu posluziti niti Konstantinovi podaci o naseljenju Srba, jer ih car, a znamo i zasto, stavlja u Srbiju, Paganiju, Zahumlje i Travuniju te Konavle po kriteriju 10-og stoljeca kad su sve te zemlje priznavale bizantsku vlast. Prema tome, ako se sam car nije hvalio da je Bosna od naseljenja srpska, a sigurno bi to vrlo rado ucinio,onda kritickom historicaru ne preostaje drugo nego i na osnovi careva teksta tvrditi da je Bosna od pocetka bila bosanska."

    Zato je Noel Malcolm potpuno u pravu kada u svojoj knjizi "Bosnia-a short history",doslovno citira Porfirogeneta i na stranici 10,kaze: "It occurs in the politico-geographical handbook written in 958 by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenetus.In the section of his handbook devoted to the Serbian prince`s lands he wrote:'IN BAPTISED SERBIA ARE THE INHABITED CITIES OF DESTIKON ....AND IN THE TERRITORY OF BOSONA,KATERA AND DESNIK" This makes it clear that Bosnia (an area smaller than modern Bosnia proper,and centered on the river Bosna which flows northwards from Sarajevo) was considered a separate territory.though at that particular time a dependency of the Serbs.In the 960s it fell once again under Croatian rule,and remained a Croatian territory for roughly half a century." Sto na bosanskom znaci: "Ovo se pojavljuje u politicko geografskom prirucniku,napisanom 958 godine od strane bizantijskog cara Konstantina Porfirogeneta,u dijelu njegovog prirucnika posvecenom zemljama srpskog princa napisao je :"U KRSTENOJ SRBIJI SU NASELJENI GRADOVI DESTIKON...ITD....A NA TLU BOSNE KATERA I DESNIK" (Dakle ovdje Porfirogenet jasno navodi da su Srbija i Bosna dvije razlicite zemlje,nabraja prvo naseljene gradove u Srbiji pa onda naseljene gradove u Bosni!),o cemu Malcolm dalje kaze: "Ovo nam govori vrlo jasno da je Bosna (podrucje manje nego danasnja uza Bosna koje je smjesteno oko rijeke Bosne,koja tece na sjever od Sarajeva) bila smatrana zasebnom teritorijom,iako u tom konkretnom trenutku pod vlascu Srba.

    Oko 960 godine Bosna pada ponovo pod hrvatsku vlast te ostaje hrvatska teritorija oko pola stoljeca" Da je Bosna razlicita zemlja od Srbije kako u etnickom tako i politickom,kulturnom i svakom drugom pogledu svjedoci jasno cijela historija Bosne poslije 958. godine. 958.god.Bosna je bila tek pod kratkotrajnom okupacijom Srbije,i u svakom pogledu to su dvije razlicite zemlje.Tome jasno svjedoci i sljedecih hiljadu godina historije bosanskog naroda koji je u svakom pogledu razlicit narod od Srba,sa razlicitom historijom,vjerom,crkvom,jezikom,pismom,sopstvenim narodnim imenom,drzavom,vladarskim titulama,sopstvenom kraljevskom krunom,kulturom...

    Zitat Zitat von Sultan Mehmed Fatih Beitrag anzeigen
    Vecina kazu da nema M.Dinic profesor historije na Beogradskom univerzitetu kaze Opce je poznata stvar, da do dolaska Turaka, nije bilo pravoslavnih u Bosni.

    To je za nas rijesena stvar. Semantizan Banjalucko-Bihacke Spc iz 1901 kaze Opce je poznata stvar, da prije dolaska Turaka, nije bilo pravoslavnih na ovom podrucju.


    Pa, sta bi sa Poveljom Kulina Bana.Ili, saborom u Bilinoe 1204, kada Kulun formalno prihvaca katolicanstvo Stjepan Kulinic, sin, mu vlada do 1225, po nekima i 1223.Njega naslijedjuje Matej Ninoslav.Dok, Fine kaze da je vladao od 1232-1250, Mandic, u Srednjovjekovlju Bosne, izricito kaze, da do 1245, Matej je umro, jer nema vise spomena, i dokaza mu imenu. I Matej Ninoslav, samara se izmedju semantizma Katolicke i Pravoslavne crkve, nakon Jereze 1054 u Klermontu, kada su Crkve podijeljene, mnogi vladari Bosne, igraju se na sve strane.

    Od Geze III(1141-1161) koji kazu da si svi u Bosni, pagani najzesce sorte.I to je vrijeme, dok je jos uvijek Ban Boric bio aktivan.

    Ivan Kapistran, Franjevac, Teolog, Branitelj Beograda, Putnik, Avanturista u pismu Jula 1455 Kalikstu III kaze ovako za Bosnjane Az Bosnjani su crvstije ljudijeh.Oni zive izmedju rijeka Drine i Bosne. Po vjeroucenju, oni nisu pripadnici crkve Rasana.Bosnjani bi radije mrijeli, neko da umru viru Rasana. Rasani su stari naziv za Srbe?

    Sta je sad ispravno Krenimo od raskolnistva 1054, i stvaranju prave crkve, kakva i danas postoji 1219 je stvorena Spc.Nju je stvorio sin Stevana Nemanje, Rastko, rodjen u Miscicima kraj Novog Pazara Rastko u zapisu 1220 kaze Stvorio sam novu crkvu Serbalja.Ima 7 Zupa.Nijedna zupa se nije nalazila na podrucju danasnje Bosne.Nijedna.
    U Humu su sve patareni ili nesto katolika Rastko pak kaze.Aj zam cul, da ima nevjernika u Humskoj Zemlji.On salje Hilariona, da obrati ljude u Stonu i Humu Hilarion se vraca nakon 22 godine u Rasku i kaze: Ni vrh'ovine n'ima, ni biri, ni jedinog dohodka niotkuder Znaci, pisi propalo.22 godine bez dinara.

    Sta kaze Corocvic u Istoriji Srpskih zemalja Nema dokaza da je bilo pravoslavlja u Bosni prije Turaka.I sam Manastir Papraca je mozda jedini manastir, koji je postojao tu prije Turaka Pa, sam Vladimir Corovic samara, nove lazljive Srpske historicare.

    Sta je ovdje istina Genadije Skolarious 1453-1459, prvi Carigradski patrijars u pismu Sinajskim monasima kaze, da kadugeri(Bosanski krscani) Huma, nisu pravoslavne vjere.

    A.Solovjev u Fundajatima 133-134 stranica kaze: Bosnjani su pripadici Crkve Bosanske Pa, jel ima ili nema Hvalov apostol i Danicic negira kao dokaz da je bilo pravoslavnih u Bosni

  8. #248
    Magic
    Zitat Zitat von Sultan Mehmed Fatih Beitrag anzeigen
    Al skim ja ovdje naglabam? S laikom koji misli da je Ljiljan Srpski grb..


    BOSANSKI LJILJANI NA BOSANSKOJ ZASTAVI

  9. #249
    Avatar von Hercegovac

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    zdravo sultane,

    vidim koliko se boris da su Srbi iz Bosne bivsi Bosnjaci, samo sto su presli na pravoslavlje. Pisao si meni o genetici, pa da ti kazem nesto, englezi su to istrazivali u Bosni i Hercegovini, pa je rezultat da su Srbi, Hrvati, i Bosnjaci iz Bosne blizi neko bilo skim drugim. Naravano se moze taj rezultat tako izloziti da imamo istu genetiku, sto poticemo od Bosnjaka, al na drugoj strani se moze to isto na isti nacin izloziti da su danasnji Bosnjaci bivsi Srbi i Hrvati, zar nije tako ?

    Vrlo mi je zanimljivo koju energiju trosis na srpsko porijeklo, srpske heroje itd....

  10. #250
    Avatar von Hercegovac

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    Hercegovina - ??????????

    e ovdje jos jednom sve procitaj o Hercegovni pa mi onda pricaj o njoj...cak svaki "Srbin" iz Hercegovine pripada jednom plemenu crnogorskim, samo sto je radi srpske propagande to dosta zaboravljeno itd.

    Hercegovina je bila duga vremena zajednicka zemlja Crnom Gorom, pa mi ti reci da su to Bosnjaci... nismo bezveze zajedno bracom Crnogorcima podigli "hercegovacki ustanak" i tjerali Turke van Balkana...

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