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Pontier in der Türkei

Erstellt von Hellenic-Pride, 01.11.2013, 08:56 Uhr · 643 Antworten · 32.332 Aufrufe

  1. #361

    Registriert seit
    28.09.2008
    Beiträge
    23.630
    Habe einen tollen Artikel über Pontos gefunden.
    Laut independent.uk existiert östlich von Trapezous/Trabzon eine Ortschaft aus ca. 5000 islamisierten Griechen, die NICHT Romeyka / Rumca sprechen, sondern wahrscheinlich einen echten altgriechischen Dialekt.


    Viel Spaß beil lesen:

    Jason and the argot: land where Greek's ancient language survives

    An isolated community near the Black Sea coast in a remote part of north-eastern Turkey has been found to speak a Greek dialect that is remarkably close to the extinct language of ancient Greece.

    As few as 5,000 people speak the dialect but linguists believe that it is the closest, living language to ancient Greek and could provide an unprecedented insight into the language of Socrates and Plato and how it evolved.

    The community lives in a cluster of villages near the Turkish city of Trabzon in what was once the ancient region of Pontus, a Greek colony that Jason and the Argonauts are supposed to have visited on their epic journey from Thessaly to recover the Golden Fleece from the land of Colchis (present-day Georgia). Pontus was also supposed to be the kingdom of the mythical Amazons, a fierce tribe of women who cut off their right breasts in order to handle their bows better in battle.

    Linguists found that the dialect, Romeyka, a variety of Pontic Greek, has structural similarities to ancient Greek that are not observed in other forms of the language spoken today. Romeyka's vocabulary also has parallels with the ancient language.

    Ioanna Sitaridou, a lecturer in romance philology at the University of Cambridge, said: "Romeyka preserves an impressive number of grammatical traits that add an ancient Greek flavour to the dialect's structure, traits that have been completely lost from other modern Greek varieties.
    "Use of the infinitive has been lost in all other Greek dialects known today – so speakers of Modern Greek would say 'I wasn't able that I go' instead of 'I wasn't able to go'. But, in Romeyka, not only is the infinitive preserved, but we also find quirky infinitival constructions that have never been observed before – only in the Romance languages are there parallel constructions."

    The villagers who speak Romeyka, which has no written form, show other signs of geographic and cultural isolation. They rarely marry outside their own community and they play a folk music on a special instrument, called a kemenje in Turkish and Romeyka or lyra as it is called in Greek, Dr Sitaridou said. "I only know of one man who married outside his own village," she said. "The music is distinctive and cannot be mistaken for anything else. It is clearly unique to the speakers of Romeyka."

    One possibility is that Romeyka speakers today are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks who lived along the Black Sea coast millennia ago – perhaps going back to the 6th or 7th centuries BC when the area was first colonised. But it is also possible that they may be the descendants of indigenous people or an immigrant tribe who were encouraged or forced to speak the language of the ancient Greek colonisers.

    Romeykas-speakers today are devout Muslims, so they were allowed to stay in Turkey after the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, when some two million Christians and Muslims were exchanged between Greece and Turkey. Repeated waves of emigration, the dominant influence of the Turkish-speaking majority, and the complete absence of Romeyka from the public arena, have now put it on the list of the world's most endangered languages.

    "With as few as 5,000 speakers left in the area, before long, Romeyka could be more of a heritage language than a living vernacular. With its demise would go an unparalleled opportunity to unlock how the Greek language has evolved," said Dr Sitaridou. "Imagine if we could speak to individuals whose grammar is closer to the language of the past. Not only could we map out a new grammar of a contemporary dialect but we could also understand some forms of the language of the past. This is the opportunity that Romeyka presents us with."

    Studies of the grammar of Romeyka show that it shares a startling number of similarities with Koine Greek of Hellenistic and Roman times, which was spoken at the height of Greek influence across Asia Minor between the 4th century BC to the 4th century AD.

    Modern Greek, meanwhile, has undergone considerable changes from its ancient counterpart, and is thought to have emerged from the later Medieval Greek spoken between the 7th and 13th Centuries AD – so-called Byzantine Greek.

    Future research will try to assess how Pontic Greek from the Black Sea coast evolved over the centuries. "We know that Greek has been continuously spoken in Pontus since ancient times and can surmise that its geographic isolation from the rest of the Greek-speaking world is an important factor in why the language is as it is today," Dr Sitaridou said. "What we don't yet know is whether Romeyka emerged in exactly the same way as other Greek dialects but later developed its own unique characteristics which just happen to resemble archaic Greek.

    Many of the world's languages are disappearing as once-isolated populations become part of the global economy, with children failing to learn the language of their grandparents and instead using the dominant language of the majority population, which in this part of the world is Turkish.
    "In Pontus, we have near-perfect experimental conditions to assess what may be gained and what may be lost as a result of language contact," Dr Sitaridou said.
    -
    Jason and the argot: land where Greek's ancient language survives - History - Life & Style - The Independent
    -

    Es ist noch vieles zu erforschen, wir haben es anzugehen, und dürfen dabei nicht müde werden.
    Sie rufen nach uns.

  2. #362
    Avatar von Dr. Gonzo

    Registriert seit
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    Zitat Zitat von Arbeiter Beitrag anzeigen
    Die Zazas stammen doch von den Parther ab: Zazaki and Parthian languages oder?
    Den Forschungen zufolge tun sie das. Es ist aber schwierig weil damals das Parthische keine verkehrsprache war. Die korrospondez erfolgte zumeist auf anderen Sprachen, zb. griechisch.

  3. #363
    Avatar von der skythe

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    23.03.2013
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    Zitat Zitat von Nikos Beitrag anzeigen
    Das auf jeden Fall, wenn man in deiner Quelle auch genauer Liest, merkt man, dass im Osmanischen Reich Philosophie verboten war.
    Liegt wahrscheinlich daran das wir Moslems das Alphabet nicht benutzten, ihr seit so Vollpfosten....

  4. #364
    Avatar von Poliorketes

    Registriert seit
    30.12.2012
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    6.379
    Zitat Zitat von Amphion Beitrag anzeigen
    Habe einen tollen Artikel über Pontos gefunden.
    Laut independent.uk existiert östlich von Trapezous/Trabzon eine Ortschaft aus ca. 5000 islamisierten Griechen, die NICHT Romeyka / Rumca sprechen, sondern wahrscheinlich einen echten altgriechischen Dialekt.


    Viel Spaß beil lesen:

    Jason and the argot: land where Greek's ancient language survives

    An isolated community near the Black Sea coast in a remote part of north-eastern Turkey has been found to speak a Greek dialect that is remarkably close to the extinct language of ancient Greece.

    As few as 5,000 people speak the dialect but linguists believe that it is the closest, living language to ancient Greek and could provide an unprecedented insight into the language of Socrates and Plato and how it evolved.

    The community lives in a cluster of villages near the Turkish city of Trabzon in what was once the ancient region of Pontus, a Greek colony that Jason and the Argonauts are supposed to have visited on their epic journey from Thessaly to recover the Golden Fleece from the land of Colchis (present-day Georgia). Pontus was also supposed to be the kingdom of the mythical Amazons, a fierce tribe of women who cut off their right breasts in order to handle their bows better in battle.

    Linguists found that the dialect, Romeyka, a variety of Pontic Greek, has structural similarities to ancient Greek that are not observed in other forms of the language spoken today. Romeyka's vocabulary also has parallels with the ancient language.

    Ioanna Sitaridou, a lecturer in romance philology at the University of Cambridge, said: "Romeyka preserves an impressive number of grammatical traits that add an ancient Greek flavour to the dialect's structure, traits that have been completely lost from other modern Greek varieties.
    "Use of the infinitive has been lost in all other Greek dialects known today – so speakers of Modern Greek would say 'I wasn't able that I go' instead of 'I wasn't able to go'. But, in Romeyka, not only is the infinitive preserved, but we also find quirky infinitival constructions that have never been observed before – only in the Romance languages are there parallel constructions."

    The villagers who speak Romeyka, which has no written form, show other signs of geographic and cultural isolation. They rarely marry outside their own community and they play a folk music on a special instrument, called a kemenje in Turkish and Romeyka or lyra as it is called in Greek, Dr Sitaridou said. "I only know of one man who married outside his own village," she said. "The music is distinctive and cannot be mistaken for anything else. It is clearly unique to the speakers of Romeyka."

    One possibility is that Romeyka speakers today are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks who lived along the Black Sea coast millennia ago – perhaps going back to the 6th or 7th centuries BC when the area was first colonised. But it is also possible that they may be the descendants of indigenous people or an immigrant tribe who were encouraged or forced to speak the language of the ancient Greek colonisers.

    Romeykas-speakers today are devout Muslims, so they were allowed to stay in Turkey after the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, when some two million Christians and Muslims were exchanged between Greece and Turkey. Repeated waves of emigration, the dominant influence of the Turkish-speaking majority, and the complete absence of Romeyka from the public arena, have now put it on the list of the world's most endangered languages.

    "With as few as 5,000 speakers left in the area, before long, Romeyka could be more of a heritage language than a living vernacular. With its demise would go an unparalleled opportunity to unlock how the Greek language has evolved," said Dr Sitaridou. "Imagine if we could speak to individuals whose grammar is closer to the language of the past. Not only could we map out a new grammar of a contemporary dialect but we could also understand some forms of the language of the past. This is the opportunity that Romeyka presents us with."

    Studies of the grammar of Romeyka show that it shares a startling number of similarities with Koine Greek of Hellenistic and Roman times, which was spoken at the height of Greek influence across Asia Minor between the 4th century BC to the 4th century AD.

    Modern Greek, meanwhile, has undergone considerable changes from its ancient counterpart, and is thought to have emerged from the later Medieval Greek spoken between the 7th and 13th Centuries AD – so-called Byzantine Greek.

    Future research will try to assess how Pontic Greek from the Black Sea coast evolved over the centuries. "We know that Greek has been continuously spoken in Pontus since ancient times and can surmise that its geographic isolation from the rest of the Greek-speaking world is an important factor in why the language is as it is today," Dr Sitaridou said. "What we don't yet know is whether Romeyka emerged in exactly the same way as other Greek dialects but later developed its own unique characteristics which just happen to resemble archaic Greek.

    Many of the world's languages are disappearing as once-isolated populations become part of the global economy, with children failing to learn the language of their grandparents and instead using the dominant language of the majority population, which in this part of the world is Turkish.
    "In Pontus, we have near-perfect experimental conditions to assess what may be gained and what may be lost as a result of language contact," Dr Sitaridou said.
    -
    Jason and the argot: land where Greek's ancient language survives - History - Life & Style - The Independent
    -

    Es ist noch vieles zu erforschen, wir haben es anzugehen, und dürfen dabei nicht müde werden.
    Sie rufen nach uns.
    Ja das ist der hier wurde auch schon des öfteren hier gepostet, das Archaische Element ist das dieser Dialekt des Pontischen den Infinitiv behalten hat der bei allen anderen Griechischen Dialekten verschwunden ist.
    Die Linguistin Ioanna Sitaridou geht davon aus das diese Leute schon sehr früh Moslems geworden sind kurz nach der Eroberung des Kaiserreich Trapezount und somit den Kontakt zu der übrigen Griechisch Sprachigen Welt verloren haben deren Sprache sich weiter entwickelt hat.


  5. #365
    Avatar von Dr. Gonzo

    Registriert seit
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    Zitat Zitat von Palaiologos XI Beitrag anzeigen
    Ja das ist der hier wurde auch schon des öfteren hier gepostet, das Archaische Element ist das dieser Dialekt des Pontischen den Infinitiv behalten hat der bei allen anderen Griechischen Dialekten verschwunden ist.
    Die Linguistin Ioanna Sitaridou geht davon aus das diese Leute schon sehr früh Moslems geworden sind kurz nach der Eroberung des Kaiserreich Trapezount und somit den Kontakt zu der übrigen Griechisch Sprachigen Welt verloren haben deren Sprache sich weiter entwickelt hat.

    Das mit dem Archaischen habe ich auch mal gelesen. Könnte aber stimmen. Es gibt, außermal ein paar beidseitig geteilte wörter mit der unmittelbaren nachbarschaft, keine großen spuren nach veränderung. Gab ja keinen großen Grund

  6. #366
    Avatar von Poliorketes

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    6.379
    @Amphion Aber soweit ich weiß ist das Tsakonische der älteste erhaltene Dialekt des Griechischen es stammt direkt vom Dorischen Griechisch der Klassischen Zeit ab im gegensatzt zu allen anderen Dialekten die den "umweg" vom Attischen der Klassischen zeit über die Koine (Gemeinschaftssprache) aus der Hellenistischen Zeit nach Alexander den Großen machten.

    Tsakonisch
    "Tsakonisch ist ein griechischer Dialekt, der noch in wenigen Dörfern der Regionen Lakonien und Arkadien auf der Peloponnes aktiv gesprochen wird. Tsakonisch ist der einzige noch heute gesprochene griechische Dialekt, der sich nicht aus der hellenistischen Gemeinsprache (Koine), sondern aus dem antiken dorischen Dialekt entwickelt hat."


  7. #367
    Avatar von der skythe

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    23.03.2013
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    Zitat Zitat von Nikos Beitrag anzeigen
    Man braucht nicht unbedingt Kraft zu haben um einen militärischen Sieg zu erringen. Das hat die Geschichte an uns Griechen mehrmals gezeigt.
    Ließ mal was ich in meiner Aussage weiter oben noch hinzugefügt habe.

    Außerdem waren wir Griechen auf ganzen anderen posten: Marine, Handel und andere wichtige Bereiche des Reiches waren weitgehend in Griechischer Hand.

    Es ist außerdem keine Schande die gebildete Elite zu sein, wohingegen die anderen kämpferische "Barbaren" sind.

    Ach ja und ... ja ich habe Bosnier und Bulgaren vertauscht :P
    Stimmt man muss hinterhältig sein,so wie ihr Hellenen..

  8. #368
    Avatar von Dr. Gonzo

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    Zitat Zitat von der skythe Beitrag anzeigen
    Stimmt man muss hinterhältig sein,so wie ihr Hellenen..
    Nie um eine schlagfertige Antwort verlegen mein kleiner Steppenwolf

  9. #369
    Avatar von der skythe

    Registriert seit
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    Was soll ich machen Dersimli,bunlardan Adam olmaz ...
    Bizede dost olmaz,ya gercekci olursun ve tarihte yasanan tecrübeleri göz önüne korsun,yada bu ipnelere kapini acarsin.
    Kusura kalma bunlara güvenemiyorum,hissimde beni kolay kolay aldatmaz.

  10. #370
    Avatar von Dr. Gonzo

    Registriert seit
    29.04.2012
    Beiträge
    10.633
    Zitat Zitat von der skythe Beitrag anzeigen
    Was soll ich machen Dersimli,bunlardan Adam olmaz ...
    Bizede dost olmaz,ya gercekci olursun ve tarihte yasanan tecrübeleri göz önüne korsun,yada bu ipnelere kapini acarsin.
    Kusura kalma bunlara güvenemirum,hissimde beni kolay kolay aldatmaz.
    7

    Onlarin aralarindada mert olani var kahpe olanida. Bunu böyle anlamak gerek. Önce insani tanimak lazim. Anadolunun cesitli halkari var. Türkiye bunu vatandaslari kayip ederek, kendini 200 yil geride buldu. O kadar kanlar döküldü. Yazik bizlere ki halen gecmisin hatalarini yapiyoruz. Vorurteile sind nie gut. Es gab viele Verräter in der geschicht, bei jedem Volk. Auch bei meinem gabs die.

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