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Rückkehr der illyrischen Könige

Erstellt von Rockabilly, 11.12.2012, 10:47 Uhr · 287 Antworten · 18.914 Aufrufe

  1. #81
    Avatar von Charlie

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    Ich kenn mich ja nicht so aus wie ihr in der Antike, aber kann es denn nicht sein dass die Molosser eine Mischung aus Illyrer und Hellenen waren??

    Mir ist eigentlich so ziemlich scheiss egal was die waren, bis ich gelesen habe, dass die Mutter vom Alexander des Grossen aus diesem Stamm kommt. Da wurde ich schon nbisschen geil, ich glaube da kam der Mazedoner aus mir raus. Wenn ich das nächste mal in Shkup bin, werde ich gleich ein paar Fotos von mir und Leki i madh schiessen.

  2. #82
    Avatar von Pontiac

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    Molossians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Molossians (Greek: Μολοσσοί, Molossoi) were an ancient Greek tribe that inhabited the region of Epirus since the Mycenaean era.[1] On their northeast frontier, they had the Chaonians and on their southern frontier the kingdom of the Thesprotians; to their north were the Illyrians. The Molossians were part of the League of Epirus until they sided against Rome in the Third Macedonian War (171–168 BC). The result was disastrous, and the vengeful Romans enslaved 150,000 of its inhabitants and annexed the region into the Roman Empire.
    Kingdoms of Greece - Epirus (Molossians)

    Epirus was originally dominated by three Greek tribes. The Molossians were said to be descended from Molossos, and were classed by Strabo as the most famous of the fourteen tribes of Epirus. To their north were the Chaonians, who appear to have been dominant prior to the arrival of Neoptolemus, and to the south-west was the kingdom of the Thesprotians, on the coast. All three tribes formed the most powerful elements of the previous smaller tribes in the region. At first, it seems that the (semi-legendary) early kingdom of Epirus formed by Mycenaeans probably equated only to the central regions of the later Epirote kingdom, the region held by the Molossians themselves.
    Molossians

    The Molossians were a Greek tribe of ancient Epirus.
    They claimed to be descendents of Molossus, one of the three sons of Neoptolemus, son of Achilles and Hector's wife Andromache. According to Greek mythology, following the sack of Troy, Neoptolemus and his armies settled in Epirus where they joined the local Dorian Greek population and displaced the barbarian tribes to the North

    http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...=9780521070515

    Cambridge University Press




    Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. "That the Molossians[...]spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke Greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the Greek colonists of Asia Minor, but became demonstrable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae, as we have argued above, we may be confident that they too were Greek-speaking."

    A History of Macedonia
    University of California Press



    "The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots."

    Archer Jones / The Art of War in the Western World

    The University of Illinois Press

    Universität Illinois aus den USA :"

    Jones, Archer (2001). The art of war in the Western world. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. p. 32. ISBN 0-252-06966-8. "The particulars of these with Pyrrhus of the Greek kingdom of Epirus"

    Soviel darüber was die akademische Welt darüber sagt....

    - - - Aktualisiert - - -

    Zitat Zitat von Charlie Beitrag anzeigen
    Ich kenn mich ja nicht so aus wie ihr in der Antike, aber kann es denn nicht sein dass die Molosser eine Mischung aus Illyrer und Hellenen waren??

    Mir ist eigentlich so ziemlich scheiss egal was die waren, bis ich gelesen habe, dass die Mutter vom Alexander des Grossen aus diesem Stamm kommt. Da wurde ich schon nbisschen geil, ich glaube da kam der Mazedoner aus mir raus. Wenn ich das nächste mal in Shkup bin, werde ich gleich ein paar Fotos von mir und Leki i madh schiessen.

    Eine Mischung waren sie alle mal, bei der Nähe zwischen den beiden Völkern auch kein Wunder. Aber sie sprachen nunmal Griechisch und pflegten eine griechische Kultur. Von daher kann man sie ganz klar nicht zum illiyrischen Kulturkreis zählen!

  3. #83
    Avatar von FloKrass

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    Zitat Zitat von Minotaurus68mm Beitrag anzeigen
    Molossians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Kingdoms of Greece - Epirus (Molossians)



    Molossians




    http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...=9780521070515

    Cambridge University Press







    A History of Macedonia
    University of California Press





    Archer Jones / The Art of War in the Western World

    The University of Illinois Press



    Soviel darüber was die akademische Welt darüber sagt....

    - - - Aktualisiert - - -




    Eine Mischung waren sie alle mal, bei der Nähe zwischen den beiden Völkern auch kein Wunder. Aber sie sprachen nunmal Griechisch und pflegten eine griechische Kultur. Von daher kann man sie ganz klar nicht zum illiyrischen Kulturkreis zählen!

    Nun, ich sehe, du hast nicht viel verstanden. Du redest/schreibst von einer Zeit, in der die Epiroten weitesgehend hellenisiert wurden. Ich sagte bereits, dass die hellenisierung der Epiroten zw. dem 6-4 Jhdt.v.Ch. ansetzte und ab dieser Zeit sie vermehrt als Hellenen aufgeführt werden. Das ist auch verständlich, wenn man bedenkt, dass sie an der "Grenze" zu den hellenischen Stämmen lebten und sie sich mit ihnen vermischten und mit der Zeit sogar assimilierten.

    Wenn du schon mit englischsprachigen Quellen beginnen möchtest, kann ich dir davon auch so einige anbieten. Aus Gründen der Klarstellung muss man sagen, dass die Griechen nicht allen Epiroten eine griechische Identität zuschrieben sondern nur deren Elitee, während sie die Bevölkerung als Barbaren bezeichneten. Aber auch diese mythische Behauptung wurde von den Griechen selbst angegriffen. Für sie war Epirus ein fremdes Land, das ausserhalb der griechischen Welt lag. Sie bezeichneten seine Bewohner als Barbaren (weil ihre Sprache völlig unverständlich), welches sie auch von den übrigen Illyrern, Macedonen, Thrakern, Etrusskern behaupteten.

    Aber lassen wir mal die Quellen sprechen:

    The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia. To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.

    His Family

    The only Epirotes whom the Greeks regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, royal house of the Molossians. Pyrrhus was a member of this family. The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.

    h2g2 - Pyrrhus the Eagle, King of Epirus: 319 - 272 BC
    Von antiken Schreibern wurden sie als Barbaren bezeichnet; allem Anschein nach, wurde dieser Begriff nicht dazu benutzt, um die Epiroten rückständiger als die Griechen zu bezeichnen. Gemessen an ihrere Sprache, ihren Bräuchen, Tradition und Lebensweise (die sich komplett von den Griechen unterschied), bezeichneten sie antike Schreiber als "Barbaren":

    Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1

    Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes—Epeirotic tribes.

    καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν· ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.

    So ist die Behauptung einiger frühen griechischen Nationalisten (Megali Idea), dass das Wort "Barbare" Rückständigkeit bedeutete unhaltbar. Diese These wurde im 18 Jhdt unserer Zeitrechnung aufgeworfen, um Ansprüche über den ganzen Epirus zu werfen.

    Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek, 1983, S. 2, n. 7 "The language of the Epirotes is repeatedly described in antiquity as non-Greek (Thucydides 1.47, 1.51, 2.80, Strabo, 8.1.3). Yes the Epirotes were connected with the origin of various Greek communities. There may well have been an ethnic and linguistic mixture in Epirus, some tribes speaking Greek, others Illyrian or some other language (cf. Hammond (1967) 423; Katičić (1976) 120-7)"
    "The Arrian passage reminds us of an important fact of Macedonia's location: its neighbours - Thracians, Paionians, Epirotes and Illyrians - were primarily non-urban peoples with more or less hellenized elites." - Graham Shipley's The Greek World after Alexander, 2000, S. 111

    Michael Grant, Rachel Kitzinger, Civilization of the ancient Mediterranean: Greece and Rome: Volume 1, 1988, S. 203:

    "On the other hand, Thucydides (1.47.3, 5o-3) and Strabo (7.7.1) call the Epirotes barbaroi: only two of Thucydides' (2.80) northern chieftains have Greek names and many Epirote tribes did not speak Greek (Strabo 7.7.1) and even enjoyed...
    Ronald Edward Latham, In quest of civilization, Jarrolds limited, 1946, S. 247, chapter "Trying to be Greeks":

    On the fringe of Hellas, and not yet fully accepted as Greeks even in name, lived the Epirotes and the Macedonians. Though these were being progressively Hellenized by contact with Greek colonies on the coast and their rulers claimed descent from legendary Greek heroes, the Greeks still regarded them, as the more civilized Chinese regarded the Ch'in,
    From a classical Greek point of view, the northwest of Greece was inhabited by a bunch of barbarian tribes, in which the fifth-century sources are nor really interested. They contradict each other about which nations could be classified as western Greeks, Epirotes, or Illyrians. It does not really help us that the tribes did not leave behind written texts. Several sanctuaries, like Dodona, appear to have been hellenized quite early, but the people of the northwest retained some archaic traits. Several tribes were led by kings, something that was very unusual in the Greek world. On the other hand, the nearby Macedonians shared some of these characteristics.

    Pyrrhus of Epirus (1)
    Alle diese charakeristischen Spezifika wurden auch von den Illyrern geteilt. Dies alles ergibt zumindest theoretisch einen Spielraum für den "ethnischen" Anschluss der Epiroten zu den Illyrern.

    'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)

    Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'
    Nach einer frühen Quelle (Theopompus) lebten in Epirus vierzehn Stämme. Er selbst konnte diese nicht zuordnen, jedoch hat es die moderne Wissenschaft größtenteils geschaft, diese einzuordnen:

    "In later times more than half of Aetolia ceased to be Grecian, and without doubt adopted the manners and language of the Illyrians, from which point the Athamanes, an Epirote and Illyrian nation, pressed into the south of Thessaly. "

    The Historians' History of the World: Greece to the Peloponnesian war
    Henry Smith Williams - 1904 - S. 111
    Einige "Gelehrte" dachten, dass die Illyrer auch in Aetolien und Akarnanien präsent gewesen seien. Ihre Meinung stützten sie auf Thukidites Behaputung, welcher entlang Aetloiens ein großes nicht-Griechisches Element erkennt.

    «τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

    III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.
    Die Barbaren, auf die sich Thukidites bezieht, sind unzweifelhaft die Illyrer:

    Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

    The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, S. 412
    Livius behauptet, dass die Aetolier keine echten Griechen gewesen seien:

    This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

    Es scheint auch enige zuverlässige Beweise zu geben, die eines der großen Stämme des Epirus, die Chaoner, illyrischer Abstammung sind. Dies ist A.Toynbee aufgefallen:

    [...]that the Khaones had been Illyrian-speakers originally, since the Name "Peukestos ist identical with that of the Apulian Peuketioi, while the Name 'Dexaroi' looks like a variante of the name 'Dessaretioi', wich was born by Illyrian people whose territory exteded from the shores of the Lake Okhrida (Lykhnidos) south-soth-westwards to the upper valley of the river Uzumi[...]

    Arnold Joseph Toynbee, Some problems of the Greek history, Oxford University Press 1969, S.108
    During the entire historical period Epirus was more Illyrian than Greek.

    Library of Universal History: Ancient history, Israel Smith Clare, 1906, S. 706

    "My own view — for what it is worth — is that of the three big Epirot tribes the Chaones were definitely non-Greek (their name appears again in the form Chones among the Iapygians of Apulia who appear to have been allied to the Illyrians "

    Epirus; a study in Greek constitutional development, Baron Geoffrey Neale Cross Cross of Chelsea - 1932, S. 2
    Es erscheint mir überflüssig es nochmal zu erwähnen, dass fast alle antiken und modernen geographischen Beschreibungen Epirus von Griechenland unterschieden. Allgemein wurde angenommen, dass Ambrachien das Eingangstor zu Griechenland war und die Linie bis zum Fluss Peneios den nördlichsten Teil Griechenlands markierte:

    epirot10.jpg

    epirot11.jpg

    Es gibt auch einige andere Elemente auf die higewiesen werden muss. Es ist selbst der N.G.L Hammond (welches die Epiroten als Griechen betrachtet) aufgefallen:

    Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

    Oxford Classical Dictionary about Epirus

    Epirus was an ancient region of Greece, located in what is now Albania and northwestern Greece, with Illyria to the north, the Pindus mountains to the east, and the Gulf of Ambracia (near Preveza) to the south. The region was barbarous in early Greek times and famous primarily for the oracle at Dodona (in southern Epirus) with its sacred oak tree and cult of Zeus. The oracle was much consulted throughout ancient times. The region became Hellenized through contact with Corcyra (Korfu) and Ambracia, but it did not become important until Alexander, king of Molossia (in Epirus) and brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedonia, unified the Epirotes. Alexander invaded Italy in 333 B.C. He conquered much of southern Italy, but was finally defeated and killed in 330. When Pyrrhus (319–272) ascended the throne, Epirus was dependent on Macedonia. He made his country independent and increased its territory at Macedonia's expense. He too invaded Italy brilliantly but unsuccessfully. His failure weakened the kingdom, which fell c.232. Epirus was subsequently drawn into the Roman-Macedonian wars, and in 167 the Romans sacked the country and enslaved 150,000 Epirotes. For centuries thereafter, Epirus remained under Roman (and later Byzantine) rule. In 1081 it was conquered by the Norman crusader Robert Guiscard. When the Fourth Crusade captured Constantinople, the Byzantines established (1204) an independent despotate of Epirus. It survived as a vassal state of the Byzantine Empire until conquered by the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century.

    Charles W. Fornara, Academic American encyclopedia, Volume 7, Grolier, 1997:

    Die griechischen Kolonien etablierten sich überwiegend in den südlichen Ecken des Epirus, während sich der Rest an den übrigen Küstengebieten verbreitet und damit das Binnenland unberührt ließ:

    captur10.jpg

    captur11.jpg

    Es stellt sich also die Frage, wieso gründeten die Griechen Kolonien in Epirus, wenn es doch ihr Land gewesen ist? Ein Überblick auf die griechischen Kolonien:

    hellas_550bc_shepherd.jpg
    Hellas: the Ancient Greek World circa 550 BC.
    Credit: Willliam R. Shepherd, 1926 Historical Atlas


    So aber jetzt ist mal Schluss mit Fundstellen, sonst platz das BF aus allen Nähten. Ich könnte dir noch dreimal so viel Material bieten, aber das sollte für dich und diejenigen, die glauben, dass die Epiroten Griechen gewesen seien, reichen. Ich sage es mal vorsichtig: in Griechenland ist die Propaganda der "Megali Idea" noch nicht verblasst, daher glauben einige Griechen tatsächlich an Märchen der griechischen Wiedergeburt. Was genau jetzt in Mazedonien (FYROM) passiert, passierte vor gut über einem Jahrhundert in Griechenland, daher ist es für micht als nicht-Griechen verständlich, dass ihr an alle "Griechischen Mythen" glaubt; ist ja auch nicht anders in Mazedonien heutzutage.

    PS: ich hatte dir ja versprochen, dass ich dir unzählige Quellen bieten kann, die das Gegenteil deiner Behauptungen beweisen werden und nun hast du sie.

  4. #84
    Gast829627
    super die amis bringen hollywood nach tirana und helfen bei der geschichtsschreibung......ich kann vor freude kaum meine kotze in mir halten.........von skopje über tirana nach sarajevo wir werdens noch sehen...alle sie bekommen sie ihre geschichte von hollywood geschrieben ........nur uns serben werden sie als eingewanderte keulenschwinger darstellen......

  5. #85
    Avatar von VoxPopuli

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    Flokrass & Minotaurus:

    Ihr diskutiert darüber, ob einer der Söhne nun "Max" oder "Moritz" heisst, im Grunde genommen egal, sie stammen von der selben Mutter.

  6. #86
    Avatar von FloKrass

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    Zitat Zitat von Legija Beitrag anzeigen
    super die amis bringen hollywood nach tirana und helfen bei der geschichtsschreibung......ich kann vor freude kaum meine kotze in mir halten.........von skopje über tirana nach sarajevo wir werdens noch sehen...alle sie bekommen sie ihre geschichte von hollywood geschrieben ........nur uns serben werden sie als eingewanderte keulenschwinger darstellen......
    Lasst euch doch 'ne Geschichte von Moskau erfinden und euch nicht mehr als Keulenschwinger darstellen

  7. #87
    Gast829627
    Zitat Zitat von FloKrass Beitrag anzeigen
    Lasst euch doch 'ne Geschichte von Moskau erfinden und euch nicht mehr als Keulenschwinger darstellen

    unsere geschichte ist in unseren genen und die kann niemand verändern...........

  8. #88
    Avatar von FloKrass

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    Zitat Zitat von Legija Beitrag anzeigen
    unsere geschichte ist in unseren genen und die kann niemand verändern...........
    Keulenschwinger-Gen? Dieses Gen wollte ihr immer mit euch tragen? Ich würde es wie die Gyros, Ülürer und Mekedonskis machen. Ihr könntet ja Thraker werden


    @Hirnignoranz: kein Danke für mich, für die ganze Mühe ?

  9. #89
    Avatar von hirndominanz

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    Zitat Zitat von FloKrass Beitrag anzeigen
    Lasst euch doch 'ne Geschichte von Moskau erfinden und euch nicht mehr als Keulenschwinger darstellen
    Vielleicht wollen sie es nicht, weil sie zu stolz für solchen Scheiss sind.
    Ich kenne da einige, die haben Null eigenen Stolz und sind froh, wenn irgendwelche dahergelaufenen Hobbyplasmatiker ihnen eine Pippi-Langstrumpfgeschichte a la Balla-Balla-Gangnamstyle auftischen.
    Da laufen die Hasen dann mit Löwenmasken rum und hoffentlich hören sie nicht ne Maus pipsen, sonst verdrücken sie sich schnell.
    Gras bleibt Gras und Haas bleibt Haas....alter Illyrerspruch aus der alten Gangnamstyle-Periode.

  10. #90
    Avatar von Pontiac

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    4.388
    Epirus, though mostly held by people of Grecian speech and lineage, had an intermixture of those called barbarians; Illyrians, and perhaps others. Herodotus however, among earliest, and Plutarch, among late ancient historians, clearly reckon the Molossians a Grecian people. Some expressions of Thucydides and Strabo may perhaps be construed either way. But, as it has been formerly observed, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Strabo concur in showing that all Greece was of mixed population; and how the distinction of Greek and barbarian, unknown to Homer, arose, and what at last it was, always remained uncertain. Strabo however, clearly acknowledging the Macedonian for a Greek nation, assures us that the general language of the Epirots was the Macedonian dialect of the Greek; that where another language, probably the Illyric, was in use, the people commonly spoke both, and that, in habits and manners, most of the Epirots hardly differed from the Macedonians.
    The governments of the Epirot states were, some Republican with annual chief magistrates, as at Athens, Thebes, and Rome; others monarchal. That of Molossis, from earliest tradition, was monarchal; and whether the people may have been more or less allowed the always questionable dignity of pure Grecian blood, yet the claim of the royal family to the oldest and noblest Grecian origin, resting on tradition, but asserted by Straho and Plutarch, with Aristotle’s assent implied, is not found anywhere controverted. They reckoned themselves direct descendants ofNeoptolemus Pyrrhus, son of Achilles; who, it was said, ‘” after the Trojan war, migrating from Thessaly, be¬came king of Molossis, Whatever credit may be due to this lofty pretension, that the Molossian sceptre remained in one Greek family, from times beyond certain history till after Aristotle’s age, appears satisfactorily testified.
    By advantage of situation and constitution, exempt from great troubles, Molossis, had it had historians, probably afforded little for general interest.Nevertheless we learn from the father of Grecian history that, some generations before his time, it was esteemed respectable among Grecian states. The tale wherein this appears, like many of that writer, somewhat of a romantic cast, nevertheless may have been true in all its parts; and for the information it affords of an important change of manners and policy among the Greeks, and of the florishing condition of several republics about the age of the Athenian legislator Solon, some destroyed before the historian wrote, others little heard of since, while Molossis apparently remained unshaken, it maybe reckoned of considerable historical value.
    Clisthenes, tyrant of Sicyon, under whose rule that little state was eminent among those of Peloponnesus,’ desiring, the historian says, to marry his daughter to a man of the greatest consideration and highest worth of all Greece, opened his house for any who, from personal dignity and the eminence of their countries, might have pretensions; that so he might have oppor¬tunity to estimate their merits. Thirteen guests, rivals for his favor, are thus described. There came from the Greek colonies in Italy, then florishing extraordinarily, Smindyrides of Sybaris and Damas of Siris. The former was remarked for going beyond all of his time in the luxury for which Sybaris was renowned. Damas was son of that Samyris who was distinguished by the epithet of the Wise. Am-phimnestus came from Epidamnus, on the coast of the Ionian gulf. Males was of jjEtolia, brother of Titormus, esteemed the strongest man in Greece, but who had withdrawn from the society of men to reside in the farthest part of yEtolia.3 Lcocedes was son of Phi don, tyrant of Argos; that Phidon, says the historian, who established uniformity of weights and measures throughout Peloponnesus, and, together with his power, (so far, it may seem, bene¬ficially exerted,) was remarked for an arrogance un¬equalled among the Greeks; for, depriving the Eleans of the presidency of the Olympian festival, he assumed it himself. Two came from Arcadia, Amiantus of Trapezus, and Laphanes of Pafos. The father of the latter, Euphorion, was celebrated for his extensive. hospitality, and had the extraordinary fame of having entertained the gods Castor and Pollux. Lysanias came from Eretria in Eubcea, then greatly florishing; Onomastus from Elea: Megacles and Hippoclides were of Athens; the latter esteemed the richest Athenian of his time, and the handsomest: Diac-tondes was of Cranon and Scopada? in Thessaly; Alcon was of Molossis. This simple description of Alcon, combined with what has preceded, enough marks that the Molossians were esteemed a Grecian people, and Molossis then considerable among the Grecian states. One of the Athenians, Megacles, was the successful suitor.

    “The history of Greece”, by lord Redesdale By William Mitford

    William Mitford about the greek origins of ancient Epirotes « History of Epirus
    Ich schicke dir hier Quellen von den größten und bekanntesten Unis und du redest hier von griechischer Propaganda.....

    Und nochmal für dich ich rede nicht erst vom Zeitpunkt ab dem 6-7 Jhdt. Hättest du aufmerksam meine Quellen gelesen, hättest du dies auch rausgelesen. Die Rede ist immer von Greek tribes! Und natürlich habe die Griechen dort Kolonien errichtet, wenn man es richtig betrachtet ist ganz Griechenland eine Kolonie gewesen da die Griechen nicht schon immer in Hellas und im übrigen Griechenland lebten sondern dort einwanderten und sich niederließen.......

    Du wirfst mir vor von griechischer Propaganda korrumpiert zu sein, dabei poste ich dir die ganze Zeit Quellen von nicht Griechen.....

    Ich kann mit meinen Quellen genauso weitermachen und das BF damit sprengen, habe kein Problem damit. Ich weiß nur jetzt schon dass wir diesbezüglich nicht auf einen Nenner kommen werden da ich genauso viele Unis und Akademiker posten kann die davon überzeugt sind dass die Molosser eben nicht nur hellenisiert worden sind, sondern ein griechischer Stamm waren.

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