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Suche ein altes buch...

Erstellt von Aleksandar, 25.09.2008, 02:31 Uhr · 6 Antworten · 938 Aufrufe

  1. #1

    Registriert seit

    Suche ein altes buch...

    Es heisst,
    History of the Greek People, Volume 14, Athens Publishing House soll so ca. 1880-1890 sein...

    kann mir einer von den Makedonier hier helfen es zu finden ?
    ich möchte etwas über den Harilaos Trikoupis, (Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895) was nachlesen...

  2. #2
    Mazedonische Sprache ? Wikipedia

    -Mazedonisch (mazedon. македонски јазик, transliteriert makedonski jazik), auch Makedonisch[1], mit Bezug auf Griechenland auch Slawomazedonisch[2], ist eine Sprache aus der südslawischen Untergruppe der slawischen Sprachen, die ihrerseits zu den indogermanischen Sprachen zählen.

    -Am engsten verwandt ist es mit dem Bulgarischen. Die modernen mazedonischen Dialekte sind Teil eines Dialektkontinuums, das sich sowohl zum Bulgarischen als auch zum Serbischen fortsetzt.[3]

    Am engsten verwandt ist es mit dem Bulgarischen.
    Am engsten verwandt ist es mit dem Bulgarischen.
    Am engsten verwandt ist es mit dem Bulgarischen.
    Am engsten verwandt ist es mit dem Bulgarischen.

    Makedonische Sprache ? Wikipedia

    -Dieser Artikel beschreibt die makedonische Sprache der antiken Makedonen, sie ist nicht mit dem modernen slawischen Mazedonisch oder Ägäis-Mazedonisch zu verwechseln.

    -Alle erhaltenen Zeugnisse sind in griechischen Schriftzeichen verfasst.

    -sie ist nicht mit dem modernen slawischen Mazedonisch oder Ägäis-Mazedonisch zu verwechseln.

    -sie ist nicht mit dem modernen slawischen Mazedonisch oder Ägäis-Mazedonisch zu verwechseln.

    -sie ist nicht mit dem modernen slawischen Mazedonisch oder Ägäis-Mazedonisch zu verwechseln.

    -sie ist nicht mit dem modernen slawischen Mazedonisch oder Ägäis-Mazedonisch zu verwechseln.

  3. #3

    Registriert seit

  4. #4
    Zitat Zitat von Aleksandar Beitrag anzeigen
    Deine Muttersprache gehört nicht zur makedonischen Sprachfamilie, sondern zur bulgarischen oder auch polnischen.

  5. #5
    Zitat Zitat von Aleksandar Beitrag anzeigen
    Opala, du bist sehr stark.

    schämt ihr euch nicht?

  6. #6
    Zitat Zitat von Aleksandar Beitrag anzeigen
    Hier ein paar Rezensionen zu diesem Buch von Leuten, die es gelesen haben:

    For an American writer, John Shea seems unusually well versed on the Slav-Macedonian version of history.....

    The sheer fact that he calls this country "Macedonia", shows that this is clearly a propaganda book, probably financed by the George Soros foundation, as many things in Skopje are...

    As far as whether Alexander or the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not, it is their own admissions that clarify this more than anything else:

    "For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

    "Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

    The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games
    "Men of Athens...
    Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery....
    If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon." (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

    "Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know." (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])

    Other historical references concerning the identity of the ancient Macedonians:

    "The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos" (Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)

    "But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek; so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."(Herod. V, 22, 2)

    "The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
    ` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)

    "Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
    {Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

    "There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
    (Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

    Concerning the identity and origins of modern citizens of FYROM:

    "Bulgarian historians say the inhabitants of FYROM are of Bulgarian origin and their language developed from a Bulgarian dialect," which Skopje denies. But Sofia was also the first country to recognize FYROM's independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and now favours its joining the EU. (August 2006 AFP)

    "Every national of FYROM who does not claim Albanian or Serbian origin has the right to declare a Bulgarian origin." This is an individual act in accordance with the historical reality of our common ethnic origin,"
    According to: Stefan Nikolov of the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad. (August 2006 AFP)
    Consider the world as your country, with common laws, governed by men of merit, regardless of race. I do not distinguish between Greeks and barbarians, as do the narrow-minded. I am not interested in the country or race of origin of people. I only distinguish people according to their virtues. To me every virtuous foreigner is Greek and each non-virtuous Greek is worse than a barbarian.

    - Megalos Alexandros History has been written and the facts are plain. To deny Truth is an indication of weakness and inferiority. Case Closed.
    Before I begin my review id like to point out some inaccuracies from previous reviews listed here..First, there was no Greek nation in ancient times but Greek city-states...Athens Sparta Thebes Corinth and yes Macedonia...Ive read previous reviews where the authors claim that the the Greeks revolted under Macedoanian rule which is true...Greek city states greatly valued their independence even from other Greek city states..Such is the case between Athens and Sparta when they tried to dominate each other leading to the Peloponnesian War..It is natural that they would revolt..Claiming that because the other Greek city-states revolted against Macedonia as proof of Macedonians being a non-Greek people is false!!

    Id like to ask or suggest some food for though to my FYROM readers(Former YugoSLAV Republic Of Macedonia) or disbelievers that the MAcedonians were Greek these FACTS:

    1)Why is there no evidence of a non-Greek Macedonian language?
    the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek and had Greek names..
    2)Where is this non-Greek Macedonian culture hiding?
    All ancient Macedonian artifacts are Greek
    Are we suppose to believe the that the ancient Macedoanians were not Greek and then one day out of the blue they said the hell with it let's be Greek? Lets speak Greek, worship Greek gods, write in Greek, structure our conquered territory based on Greek ideas and culture, setting up gymnasiums, theater, agoras..etc.. common on people!!! No conquerer has ever conquered a country or territory and then poof in an instant forgot his roots..I once heard someone use Rome as an example regarding its conquering of the ancient Greek city states and adopting Greek culture.Id like to point out that Rome never adopted Greek as its official language. Romans never adopted Greek names ( cicero ceasar aurelias are not greek)and most of all you can clearly see a distinction between Roman literature and Greek..

    3)Why did Alexander idolize Greek heroes such as Achilles, why did he keep a copy of the Illiad around as if it were his bible written by another Greek Homer..How is Aristotle his tutor Greek and Alexander isnt when they are both Macedonians?

    4) Why would the ancient Greeks place the home of their gods( Zeus Athena Poseidon etc) on MT OLYMPUS which is located in ancient Macedonia??
    Does it make sense for a people to place their holy sites in a foreign land??? Doesnt anyone think logically anymore?

    Todays inhabitants of FYROM are a mix of Bulgarians, Albanians, Gypsies.
    Slavic people arrived in the Balkans in the 6th and 7th century AD...
    It is LOGICALLY incorrect for these citizens to believe they are Macedonians...They are Slavs and there is ZERO evidence of the ancient Macedonians being Slavic!!!!

    Todays FYROM scholars have NO TANGIBLE EVIDENCE to claim that the ancient Macedonians were not Greek just revisionistic lies!!!!

    Furthermore,FYROM's former president Kiro Gligorov in the Toronto Star on March 15, 1992 said: . That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia.

    In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, Macedonia's Ambassador to Canada said: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian" and that "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country
    So, the synopsis of the book is that Ancient Makedonians were slavic. According to the author, the Ancient Makedonians did not speak a Hellenic dialect and Alexander the Great's tutor, Aristotle, taught him a slavic dialect.In a Socratic dialogue, that makes Aristotle a slav too since he was born in Ancient Makedonia and returned there when in exile.(I need to burn my history books.)
    Furthermore, if the ancient Makedonians were slavs, why then was Alexander I, the king of Makedonia, named Philhellene(lover of Hellas)? This title is bestowed only to foreigners.
    Unfortunately, the author doesn't mention that the king of Makedonia, Alexander I, was named Philhellene by the Theban poet Pindaros for the same reason Jason of Pherrai and Euagoras of Cyprus were called Philhellenes (Isocrates 107A, 199A). The title Philhellene in ancient times meant Philopatris (lover of the homeland) or simply put "a patriot" (Plato, Politics, 470E; Xenophon, Agesilaus, 7, 4), which is why Alexander the Great did not touch the traditional house of Pindaros when he ordered his soldiers to burn Thebes.
    I think that the book is poorly written because the author does not take into consideration the 4000 year history of Makedonia and only focuses on the recent 2000 years and especially the cold war period.
    This being the case and enlighted by the author, I recommend to all Global Hellenes to uprise. How would the Australian Author feel, if 600 years from now, the Hellenic Australian community claims that Australia wasn't an english speaking country because there were Hellenes living in Australia? So, Australia is Hellenic although we came to Australia 170 years after the Anglo-Saxons.
    Based on his book,I guess the author would agree with the Hellenic Australians since he agrees with the slavs who entered Makedonia in the 6th and 8th century(800 years after Alexander the Great's death). Apotheosis.
    Claiming, that the inhabitants of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia(The FYROM) are ethnic Macedonians, direct descendants of, or related to the ancient Macedonians the author contradicts some testimonies from The FYROM's officials:
    The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Makedonians.
    a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said:"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).
    b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared:"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia... Our ancestors came here in the 6th and 8th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).
    c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great ... Greece is Macedonia's second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."
    d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, "There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."
    e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people."
    Und das hier haben wir ja jetzt schon hundert mal gehört... ein Leser, der dieses Buch sehr toll fand, aber sich irgendwie zu dem Inhalt überhaupt nicht äußert und dann sogar diesem Widerspricht.

    Macedonia is Macedonia and the people of it are Macedonian (slavic) not Greek. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant (99% of the time it happens to be a jealous Greek). What kind of country makes another country change its name and national flag under false pretences that the use of the name "Macedonia" implies territorial advances towards the northern region of Greece also called "Macedonia" (which is merely similar to a county in the U.S.) A jealous country like Greece does. I am speaking to the 99% of Greeks that are like this, I appolagize to the other 1%, but you Greeks should all quit being so ignorant and recognize Makedonija for what it is (Just like almost every other country in the world has). A slavic country on the Balkan Penninsula.

    Auch interessant... ein anderer FYROMer sieht die Sache so:

    Shea's main methodological approach,if we assume that authors apriori developed a thesis in novo,is not so much synthesis of positive evidence for his case-namely the authenticity of the (Slav) Macedonian nation,but neutralization of the sloppy examples of negative evidence for such an ethnic phenomena.

    Thus,by applying to thin Occam Razor to bundle of ancient socio-ethnography,the author cleared enough space for application of liberal methods in the function of conclusions.And primary place among these methods are analogues,exercised with disregard to the all morphologic gradient proprietary to their specific idiosyncratic context.Thus,after display of impressive arsenal of syntagmas that are giving impression of difference between Macedonians of antiquity with the rest of the Greeks (Negative evidence),everything else is one giant "maybe",spoken in refrain,given as a catalyst to set of facts and many fallacies,which would be forgivable if were to deal with something of a reader,but here they are errors which multiply themselves.
    Written with bias derived from authors self-declared compassion for the cause of Slav-Macedonians,he fails to see that what he erects,a monumental theory of ethnogenesis,gives ideological power to forces which tend to oppose the process of rehabilitation of Slavic (Serbian and Bulgarian) self-perceptions of that nation,which is most properly aligned with their ethnocultural contexts. Such approach would be in accordance of the ongoing spiral of thesis-anthithesis-synthesis,based on positive archaeological,linguistic,historic and sociologic data relevant for the ethnic formation this book tries to demystify,although it precisely,by its unilateralism in evidence and non-causal exegesis,fails to accomplish.
    The Republic of Macedonia is probably the major Balkan problem today and it deserves a more accurate, broader and detailed presentation than this book can offer. People exist there and they are independent, so where is the problem to form a new state-nation as the author implies?
    The problems mainly arose from the fact that their ex-leader, Marhsal Tito, wanted to ethically cleanse the newly founded nation from the albanian minority. In order to do so, Tito and the "new macedonian nation" created a number of new problems.
    Their claims that they were Greeks (descentant of ancient macedonians) obviously made Greece react since they still use the name macedonia in their 4,000 old province and they didn't want acts like ethnic cleansing to get related to their history (even by the use of the greek name). Modern-Macedonians became "thiefs of history" for the Greeks, and the two nations almost get to war 10 years ago.
    Also, their claims that their language is the ancient macedonian language - although ridiculous since ancient macedonia conquered half the world and was using the Greek "koine" language - created a new problem with Bulgaria. Their language is a Bulgarian dialect, and clearly bulgaria does not like the fact that a foreign state is trying to redefine it. They know that modern linguists will not get influenced by a political statement that it will arbitrary rename bulgarian to macedonian, yet they worry of what common people will think.
    This book does not present the source of these problems, i.e. the declaration by marshal Tito and his communist-facist regime in 1945 of the "modern macedonian nation", and the support he got from Stalin. Hidding info about the post-WWII balkans and the cold-war, will not help modern-macedonians understand why they face these problems today. The name "macedonia" was not a name that Tito and Stalin selected without knowing the consequenses. They were strong then and they did it as an aggreessive move. The world order changed and the previous aggressor, "the new macedonian nation", became the defender. As most balkan experts believe, the situation will get worse since modern-macedonia will have to face now the "revenge" of it's neighbors. Nationalist movements in most balkan states are already stating that they have claims on territories of modern-macedonia. There are greeks now that present the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom) as occupied Greek territory, there are Bulgarians screaming that modern-macedonians speak Bulgarian and thus they are Bulgarians, there are Albanians crying about the supperssion their people get in modern-macedonia and the refuse of the "macedonian" government to recognize them (40% of the population) as "macedonians".
    I could draw a parallel between this book and the explanations for the WWI proposed by some books 85 years ago. No, the problems in modern-macedonia didn't arose from the struggle of some people to define themselves, as the WWI wasn't cause by the murder of Prince Karagiorgevitc in Yugoslavia 85 years ago.
    If you want to understand the past of Balkans, and 'predict' what will happen in the near future, search for a better book.
    I was completely disappointed.
    Recent events in the Balkans have shown that due to the ethnological, geopolitical and historical complexity of the region, serious in depth analysis is of paramount importance in understanding the truth. Apart from the thousands that have died as a result of the break up of Yugoslavia in the 1990's, another victim has been the truth, as is the case in most wars, especially in the 20th century.
    The truth is based on undisputed facts (dates, events etc), and in relation to opinion, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. The author along with several "reviewers," offer a valuable primary source of the beliefs of those who wish to distort History in order to further their own goals and political agendas at the expense of the historical truth; in this case it is an attempt at convincing the world of the existence of a fictitious Macedonian nationality i.e. a continuation of Yugoslav communist policies from 1945 to the present aiming to create a "socialist" state in the heart of the Balkans at the expense mostly of NATO member Greece. It is, therefore, a prime example of what should be avoided when in search of the truth. Most of the information included in this book, which is one of numerous that have sprouted in the last ten years with the sole aim of "giving birth" to a "Macedonian nation", has been either purposely taken out of context or is irrelevant and unsupported material from unknown origins.
    One of these "reviewers" states: "If Macedonia has always been Greek, why did the Greek government deny its existence until the 1980's". The question is how can Greece, of all countries, deny the existence of her own history? A rather childish and yet dangerous reaction coming as a result of Yugoslav communist propaganda and indoctrination aiming at conditioning the majority Bulgarian-Slavic population of South Serbia into believing they belong to a fictitious "Macedonian" nationality.
    There is no bigger crime one can commit against history and human-kind in general, especially the younger generations, than distorting history itself. The undisputed fact is that the "Greeks" or "Hellenes", as is more correct, are made up of a mosaic of different peoples with common characteristics. The Macedonians, just like the Spartans, Athenians, Corinthians, and the citizens of Argos, Thebes, Phokis, Eretria and dozens of other regions, spoke and wrote the Greek language, had Greek names, believed in the Greek gods, used Greek architecture and most of all considered THEMSELVES to be Greek, thus setting themselves apart from all others whom they viewed as "Barbarians". The unification of Greece took place under the hegemony of Macedonia and lead to the downfall of the Persian Empire and the establishment of the mighty Empire of Alexander the Great, through which the Greeks avenged themselves for the Persian Wars and spread Hellenism across the "Known World" and into the far reaches of uncharted lands in Asia.
    With this ongoing communist-style propaganda one cannot help, but wonder what's next? Did the Vikings build the Parthenon, were the Spartans African spearmen or was Alexander the Great a Slav?
    Let's be serious. In a democracy all voices should be heard instead of being immediately disregarded on the basis of their origin. One cannot and should not silence another just because they disagree with them! At the same time, however, the truth should be protected at all cost and not be left to be sacrificed in pursuit of political agendas.
    This book provides a fictitious insight in the study of Macedonia. It is a "must" for anybody interested either in fiction or the study of the use of communist/nationalist propaganda in History.
    The so-called Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was nothing more than Marshall Tito's way of making sure the people living in
    that section of Serbia did not lean towards Bulgaria. Instead he
    gave them a new identity. They were now Macedonians, "reaching out" to their "lost and oppressed" brothers in Greek Macedonia. Access to the port of Thessaloniki wouldn't have been bad for the Marshall either. The so-called "Macedonian" minority in Greece was, and still is, nothing more than Serbs and Bulgarians still living in that part of the world after the Byzantine/Ottoman period.

    The FYROM "Macedonian" language is nothing more than a dialect spoken at the Serb-Bulgarian border region and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Greek dialect the ancient Macedonians spoke. NOTHING.
    Greece does not recognize a "Macedonian" minority because there was never such an ethnic group. Macedonia has always been a region and not an ethnicity. Bulgarians and Serbs living in the land of ancient Macedonia (900 years after the death of Alexander the Great) are simply that - Bulgarians and Serbs living in the region of Macedonia. People should read this book with a huge grain of salt. It is definitely revisionist history.
    Alles hier zu lesen: Customer Reviews: Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation

  7. #7
    Avatar von Mardigras

    Registriert seit

    sag mal aleksandar

    ganz im ernst:

    glaubst du, daß die slawischen bewohner mazedoniens von alexander dem großen abstammen? und glaubst du, daß es sowas wie eine slawisch-mazedonische kultur gibt, die eine lange geschichte weit weg von der bulgarischen hat?

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