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Griechenland hofft das Mazedonien aufhört zu existieren.

Erstellt von Гуштер, 15.01.2011, 15:03 Uhr · 871 Antworten · 30.633 Aufrufe

  1. #251

    Registriert seit
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    Reden

    Zitat Zitat von Cyprus Beitrag anzeigen
    Und was hält die Welt davon ab, sich andere Versionen anzuhören und anzunehmen, wenn sie doch wahr sind?
    Keine Angst, es dauerte auch sehr lange bis die Version "die Welt ist doch keine Scheibe" anklang fand und man nicht mehr als Ketzer verbrannt wurde...

    PS: Das erklärt auch euren dauernden Angstzustand wenn das Wort "Makedonien" fällt

  2. #252
    Avatar von Гуштер

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    Sehr amüsant wie sich der Thread entwickelt.

    Und wieder eine Bestätigung dass der moderne Hellene von heute sich als Mittelpunkt des Universums sieht.


  3. #253

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    fantomas brisi inbox

  4. #254
    Avatar von De_La_GreCo

    Registriert seit
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    23.774
    Zitat Zitat von phαηtom Beitrag anzeigen
    dein denkensweise funktioniert so:

    was mir gefällt -> das glaube ich
    was mir nicht gefällt -> das glaube ich nicht


    laß mich in ruhe mit deinen scheiß politikern. dass kiro gligorov bestochen worden ist von griechischen fakelakischeißern, das verschweigst natürlich gerne oder? dass eine reihe von journalisten/politikern seit einem jahrzehnt regelmäßig schöne geldbatzen auf ihren konten von griech. geldgebern überwiesen werden, das wird natürlich gerne verschwiegen auf eurer seite..

    ich weiß, was wir sind und was wir nicht sind. laß mich mit deiner gehirnwäscherei in ruhe, kyprier. was mischt dich überhaupt in makedonische angelegenheiten ein.

    ich sags dir nochmal, eine studie bestätigt von 150 wissenschaftlern ist mehr wert als die aussage von einem Bankangestellten, der irgendwann im laufe seines lebens Politiker wurde und nette bestechungsgelder von griechischen fakelakikakalaken erhalten hat (Gligorov..)

    ach trifft das nicht auf euch zu???nichts für ungut artemi aber dein landsmann hier leistet sich schon seit seiner anmeldung ganz große dinger

    für ihn gibts ja griechen erst seit 1830 was ist denn das für ein schwachsinn??

    er hat recht das der term hellene für ne gewisse zeit als ein begriff für heide war

    aber das heisst doch nicht das wir nicht existierten

    wieso zum henker ist unser zweiter name bis heute noch romios (byzantiner) neben den term hellene???

    louweed aka monkeydonian ist das produkt einer ganz ganz dicken hirnwäscherei fakt


    ps:wieso nannten sich die byzantiner nach den 12 jahrhudnert wieder zusehnst als hellenen und nicht als römer????sowas erwähnt er nicht



    das du keine zeitgemässige aussage der mönche findest das sie griechen waren liegt daran das greiche zu diese rzeit ein synonym für heide war

    wenn wir aber gucken ob die beiden sich als rhomaios sahen finden wir zahlreich was

    rhomaios=byzantiner=griechen

  5. #255

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    Zitat Zitat von De_La_GreCo Beitrag anzeigen
    ach trifft das nicht auf euch zu???nichts für ungut artemi aber dein landsmann hier leistet sich schon seit seiner anmeldung ganz große dinger

    für ihn gibts ja griechen erst seit 1830 was ist denn das für ein schwachsinn??

    er hat recht das der term hellene für ne gewisse zeit als ein begriff für heide war

    aber das heisst doch nicht das wir nicht existierten

    wieso zum henker ist unser zweiter name bis heute noch romios (byzantiner) neben den term hellene???

    louweed aka monkeydonian ist das produkt einer ganz ganz dicken hirnwäscherei fakt


    Reading the Ancients:
    Remnants of Byzantine Controversies in the Greek National Narrative


    Effi Gazi
    University of Thessaly

    ...Time goes fast, however. A few centuries later, both western Europeans and modern Greeks became determined, rather over determined, each for their own reasons, to reclaim ancient wisdom from those ‘barbarian easterners’ who were obviously ignorant of the coming ‘clash of civilisations’. The moderns rediscovered the ancients during the articulation of humanism and later on during the formation political and cultural doctrines of the western Enlightenment. When classical Greece arose as the ‘cradle’ of European civilisation, modern Greeks were appointed the role of its direct descendants in the Western imagination. When the new cultural geography became fully fledged at the end of the eighteenth century, Greek nationalism also emerged and became primarily based on an educational and political programme related to the foundations of the so-called ‘glorious Antiquity’.
    For Greek intellectuals of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, this practically meant that national history had its locus in ancient times. Reading the ancients became the primary cultural focus in a project attempting to connect old and new ‘Hellenes’ more intensely and to articulate a national history in which modern Hellenism was the direct descendant of glorious ancestors. It was not an easy task for three reasons. Firstly, popular culture and memory could not easily interact with any conceptualisation of ‘Hellenism’ despite all the arguments for the survival of pagan elements. Ordinary nineteenth-century Greeks did not designate themselves as ‘Hellenes’, which meant pagans, but mostly as Romioi while their identity was articulated around the cultural and symbolic capital of Orthodox Christianity as conceptualised in the Rum Millet.

    Secondly, despite all the committed efforts to directly connect ancient and modern Hellenism in both the Western European and the Greek imagination, one could not avoid noticing that there was a huge time gap between the ancient and modern ‘Hellenes’ in this interpretation of the Greek past. And thirdly, any attempt to promote ‘Hellenism’ at the expense of Christianity was confronted with the resistance of the Church, either in the form of the Patriarchate of Constantinople or the newly established Church of Greece (1833), which feared challenges to Christian doctrine and principles arousing from this new obsession with the ancients. This was a most paradoxical situation. On the one hand, modern Hellenes needed the ancients both for articulating an attractive version of the national past and for securing their inclusion in ‘civilised’ and ‘enlightened’ Europe. On the other hand, Orthodox Christianity and the Church represented a unifying force which neither national ideology nor state politics could (and would)
    overcome. Yet, if ‘Hellene’ meant pagan and if ‘Christian’ defined the non-pagan, how was it possible for anyone to be both a Hellene and a Christian? The Greeks were alarmed to discover that they were caught up in a puzzling process of naming and that their self-designation constituted a contradiction in terms.


    Ich liebe griechische Quellen, sie sind immer noch das Beste Heilmittel für politisch motivierte Mitläufer....
    Fazit: natürlich gab es keine griechen in Byzanz, da diese sich als Romäer sahen.

  6. #256
    Avatar von De_La_GreCo

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    Zitat Zitat von Cyprus Beitrag anzeigen
    Jetzt mal im ernst. Warum ist das denn so? Glaubst du alle auf der Welt sind Opfer der griechischen Manipulation, die die griechische Version für richtig halten? Hälst du alle für so doof?



    re file ti perimenis??apo mikri mathenoune tetia propaganda giafto den exie kanena noima na milas maftous

  7. #257
    Avatar von De_La_GreCo

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    Zitat Zitat von Monkeydonian Beitrag anzeigen
    Reading the Ancients:
    Remnants of Byzantine Controversies in the Greek National Narrative


    Effi Gazi
    University of Thessaly

    ...Time goes fast, however. A few centuries later, both western Europeans and modern Greeks became determined, rather over determined, each for their own reasons, to reclaim ancient wisdom from those ‘barbarian easterners’ who were obviously ignorant of the coming ‘clash of civilisations’. The moderns rediscovered the ancients during the articulation of humanism and later on during the formation political and cultural doctrines of the western Enlightenment. When classical Greece arose as the ‘cradle’ of European civilisation, modern Greeks were appointed the role of its direct descendants in the Western imagination. When the new cultural geography became fully fledged at the end of the eighteenth century, Greek nationalism also emerged and became primarily based on an educational and political programme related to the foundations of the so-called ‘glorious Antiquity’.
    For Greek intellectuals of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, this practically meant that national history had its locus in ancient times. Reading the ancients became the primary cultural focus in a project attempting to connect old and new ‘Hellenes’ more intensely and to articulate a national history in which modern Hellenism was the direct descendant of glorious ancestors. It was not an easy task for three reasons. Firstly, popular culture and memory could not easily interact with any conceptualisation of ‘Hellenism’ despite all the arguments for the survival of pagan elements. Ordinary nineteenth-century Greeks did not designate themselves as ‘Hellenes’, which meant pagans, but mostly as Romioi while their identity was articulated around the cultural and symbolic capital of Orthodox Christianity as conceptualised in the Rum Millet.

    Secondly, despite all the committed efforts to directly connect ancient and modern Hellenism in both the Western European and the Greek imagination, one could not avoid noticing that there was a huge time gap between the ancient and modern ‘Hellenes’ in this interpretation of the Greek past. And thirdly, any attempt to promote ‘Hellenism’ at the expense of Christianity was confronted with the resistance of the Church, either in the form of the Patriarchate of Constantinople or the newly established Church of Greece (1833), which feared challenges to Christian doctrine and principles arousing from this new obsession with the ancients. This was a most paradoxical situation. On the one hand, modern Hellenes needed the ancients both for articulating an attractive version of the national past and for securing their inclusion in ‘civilised’ and ‘enlightened’ Europe. On the other hand, Orthodox Christianity and the Church represented a unifying force which neither national ideology nor state politics could (and would)
    overcome. Yet, if ‘Hellene’ meant pagan and if ‘Christian’ defined the non-pagan, how was it possible for anyone to be both a Hellene and a Christian? The Greeks were alarmed to discover that they were caught up in a puzzling process of naming and that their self-designation constituted a contradiction in terms.


    Ich liebe griechische Quellen, sie sind immer noch das Beste Heilmittel für politisch motivierte Mitläufer....
    Fazit: natürlich gab es keine griechen in Byzanz, da diese sich als Romäer sahen.
    klar louweed der ganze westen ist mitten im osmanischen reich rein und raus gegangen und hat der ganzen volksmasse eingeredet man wäre grieche




    nach deiner logik sind die albaner auch nicht die nachfahren der illyrer da sie sich heute albaner nennen und nicht illyrier......


    die sprache die wir sprechen ist seit 4000 jahre wenn nicht mehr griechisch ob wir uns jetzt griechen,hellenen,rhomaer doer was der guckuck nennen spielt keine rolle

  8. #258

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    Zitat Zitat von De_La_GreCo Beitrag anzeigen


    re file ti perimenis??apo mikri mathenoune tetia propaganda giafto den exie kanena noima na milas maftous
    de tous afinw na lene koutamares. o logos pou grafw einai gia na ta diabazoun tritoi. autoi einai mono kai mono to prosanama.

  9. #259

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    Zitat Zitat von De_La_GreCo Beitrag anzeigen


    re file ti perimenis??apo mikri mathenoune tetia propaganda giafto den exie kanena noima na milas maftous
    ICH LIEBE GRIECHISCHE QUELLEN!


    Greeks and Albanians in Greece by Alexis Heraclides,AIM Athens, December 7, 2000

    "Well before the upsurge of Greece ultra-nationalism, which manifested itself during the first part of the 1990s with the Greek-Macedonian dispute over "the name of Macedonia" and more recently with the hysterical fundamentalist nationalism of the Orthodox Church of Greece, nationalist sentiments were instilled in Greece by way of the most traditional and effective method: namely primary and secondary education (and in some cases even at university level). Education, as it is well known, has been used as a vehicle of political socialization, the process whereby young individuals learn to become enthusiastic patriots and loyal citizens of their country and state. The Greek educational system is of course not unique in pursuing such aims and hardly the inventor of such forms of socialization to the nation. Similar processes are more than obvious in all the countries of Southeastern Europe and beyond"

    "In the Greek case, the pupils are thought to be intolerant of other nations and ethnic groups (outside and within Greece). The Greek educational system teaches them and makes them believe that the Greeks are superior to all others; that the Greeks are the direct descendent of the illustrious ancient Greeks, who are said to be the greatest civilization of ancient times and the point of departure of Western civilization; and that the Greeks (presumably the ancient Greeks) are the creators of all major human values with an incomparable contribution to world culture. Greek students are also taught that their nation is more than 3000 years old. They do not recognize the well-known fact that nationhood is a very recent phenomenon in human history and that hardly any Greek nation or people existed in the classical ancient Greek cultural-linguistic milieu of antagonistic city-states. Again the attempt at historical depth is characteristic of most national historical narratives, but the Greek case is one of the most extreme, comparable only to the Israeli or Ethiopian cases. Furthermore it is deeply held and provides the Greeks of today with one of the most glorious myths ever conceived. It gives rise to self-esteem but also to arrogance and haughtiness towards all others. "

    "But let us focus on the Albanians and how they feature in the Greek national narrative. Throughout the 19th century with the Greek War of Independence ("Greek Revolution" as it is known in Greece) as the point of departure, the Albanian-speakers, notably the Orthodox Christian Albanian-speakers known as "Arvanites" were largely regarded as Greeks by the Greeks and Greeks-speakers, as Greeks in substance, "Greeks and Arvanites: two races, one nation" as some had put it at the time. And indeed this was to a considerable extent the self-definition of the Arvanites themselves at least in the southern part of the Balkan peninsula at a time when no sense of Albanian national self-consciousness had emerged. Albanian nationhood began in the last quarter of the 19th century in Kosovo, particularly as a reaction to the Serbian and Greek threats to those parts of the Ottoman Empire where the bulk of the Albanians lived for centuries. Prior to that the Orthodox Albanians in the Southern Balkans were among the most active and renown "Greek" guerrilla leaders on land and sea during the Greek War of Independence and with the advent of Greek independence and until today, fully assimilated and very prominent in politics, diplomacy, the army, etc. "

    Alexis Heraclides is Associate Professor of International Relations at the Panteion University in Athens
    Alexis Heraclides (i)


    ganzer Text hier

    GREECE A LAND OF HEROES - AND DISTORTIONS

    The controversy over Macedonia owes much to the Greek mind set, writes ALEXANDER ZAHAROPOULOS
    ("Sydney Morning Herald", Australia, Wednesday, March 23, 1994)

    Although the Australian media have overwhelmingly supported the embattled Macedonians, and although most Australians would do so instinctively, it is unlikely that more than a handful
    of people are able to fully comprehend the Greek position. It is far from trivial to say that that is because they have not experienced a Greek education.
    In retrospect it is clear to me that my 12 years of Greek schooling, mainly in the 70's, conspired to instil in me precisely one attitude and almost unshakeable belief in the purity and unity of the Greek people, language and culture (to which three, I would add "orthodoxy" if my parents, who once had to bribe a priest to allow my Anglican great-grandmother to baptise my brother, had not thought the religion irrelevant and in bad taste).

    The attitude I am referring to was taught to us at school in images. Each year, at the school parade to commemorate the uprising against "the Turk", the story was wheeled out of the
    Greek general who had killed so many infidels in a single day that his sword had to be prised out of his locked hand. Our textbooks exalted those Byzantine kings who had managed to
    keep the Eastern riff-raff out of the empire. All epochs contributed Great Cleansers to our list of heroes.
    Belief in the continuity of Greece against all odds was enabled also by a method of withholding information and sealing off interpretative paths. We had, as children, neither the capacity nor the inclination to explore disunities and "impurities" in the history of the Greek people, language and culture. The Pelloponesian War of antiquity was never more than a family squabble. We could not have savoured the thought that Sparta might have had more in common culturally with Persia (with which it formed alliances) than with Athens. The long history of the land in which we lived had been reduced for us to the opposition of Greek and non-Greek.
    One carried such views to maturity. Melina Mercouri (in 1981 I worked as assistant to her senior adviser, Vassilis Fotopoulos) used to tell me that the importance of the Elgin marbles rests in the fact that they are the heart of a body of Greek culture inherited from the ancient past. Until her
    recent death she believed that modern Greece, as the sole inheritor, had a duty to preserve the organic coherence of that body. When the bishop of Florina (a town just south of the Macedonian border) said that the very stones he stood on testified to their Greekness, he was, sadly, echoing the opening lines of a popular epic revered modern Greek poet Giannis Ritsos.
    It was not until I left Greece that I understood that our education resulted only in intellectual arrogance and moral poverty. I came to know of the strong African and Asiatic influence that operated upon early Aegean culture. I understand that Alexander spread eastward not Greek civilisation but terror and misfortune. I learnt that Salonika had a Jewish culture to rival Vienna's before local Greeks collaborated in its extermination. I was ashamed to discover that in the Greek provinces of Macedonian and Thrace live communities who in this day and age are treated as outcasts because Greek is not their first language. I was horrified to realise that for decades they had resisted policies of forced "hellenisation".
    Away from the country I quickly learnt not to use the words "gyfots" (gypsy), "vlachos" (Romanian) and "Arvanitis" (Albanian) for the common swear-words that they are in today's
    Greece. When the Greek Government used "Skoupa" ("broom" or "broomsweap") as the code name for the massive drive to remove destitute Albanians from Greece in 1993 I seriously considered changing my surname.
    Needless to say, it has not been my intention to suggest that the stifling, chauvinistic education we received cannot be overcome. Not that Greeks are presently incapable of accommodating difference. When the grave of Karolos Kuhn, the genius of the modern Greek theatre, was covered with anti-Semitic slogans in 1992, the Athenian press was swift to condemn the action. Yet even as Greeks are expunging old racisms, in respect of the Macedonian issue there has been precious little dissent from the official government line, and none that I have heard of among Greek Australians. One would like to believe that dissenters are keeping low out of fear. The rest must realise that the conventional method of perpetuating their identity as Greeks -- a method never of their own choosing -- has no place in a modern, tolerant, culturally diffuse world.

    Note: Dr Alexander Zaharopoulos left Greece after completing
    his secondary education, but returned frequently while
    studying at University College, London. He settled in
    Australia in 1992.

  10. #260

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    ich finde es geil, wie die 1,2 Millionen Mazedonier den Griechen es richtig zeigen.

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