Endlosschleife Part 2: Mazedonier vs. Griechen
Erstellt von Lilith, 29.09.2014, 16:07 Uhr · 2.853 Antworten · 90.129 Aufrufe
Man der text muss schon antiski sein sonnst macht das hier kein spaß.
Zitat von Zoran
Bitte nicht spammen damit Karanga die Posts nicht übersieht.
Danke und Pozdrav
Zitat von Zoran
Kein Problem, das kann Ich ja für euch zwei übernehmen:
"Gestatten, Zoranos Zoranoski, antiker Makedone. Paranga, Neu-Grieche, freut mich sehr!"
So, und jetzt dürft ihr euch kloppen!
Was du dir ständig von dem Namen Zoran zusammen reimst^^
Zitat von Heraclius
Karanga ist noch beim googeln
MACEDONIAN ISSUE IS ACHILLES’ HEEL FOR THE GREEK MYTH
Labels: Artikel, News
Greece and Bulgaria ‘poisoned’ their own citizens with national myths for Bulgarian or Greek character of the country and the population in Macedonia region, it means that they created their own problem.
Reason for my reaction is the recent interview with the "historian" Evangelos Kofos, published on December 17, 2005. I use the word historian with quotation-marks because Kofos belongs to army recruited "historians" of the modern Greek state that, rather than to serve the historical science, as main goal set though the ideological use of history to create and enrich modern Greek myth about the identity and origin of the modern Greek nation.
Kofos is considered a major figure in the creation of the anti-Macedonian policy of the modern Greek state after the Second World War. The "Historian" of why the Macedonian issue in Greece was not mentioned for a long time, among other things, said it was a matter of safety for Greece.
"When it started to melt the ice between the West and the East, reduced the feeling of insecurity, but started to get out other items that were not initially visible to the public. It was a problem of identity. Greeks did not speak nothing, but yin our country Yugoslavia, especially in its southern part, in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia appeared Macedonian identity, which was spread, and its residents began to identify as Macedonians ... ".
The "Historian" from the very beginning starts with falsified data. Talks about national identity in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, skillfully avoiding talking about the general problem about the identity of the Macedonian region as a whole. He did not say a word about the identity of the people in the Greek part of Macedonia, a problem that for Greece appears at the very impersonation of this part of the Greek state in 1913, but speaks selectively only forin the last decades and SRM.
Namely, there are countless letters, reports, memoirs by Greek officials and Greek state bodies, describing the state of "new conquered territories" (as they call in the documents) write about the non-Greek character of these areas. The most typical example are the Greek andartes letters who terrorized Macedonian population in cooperation with the Ottoman authorities even before 1913.
A typical example is the Greek "hero" of the anti-Macedonian Struggle, Melas, who in a letter to his wife, describing the situation in the village Zhelovo Lerin (Antartikon today) speaks of residents speaking Macedonian, "Makedonika" - as it is stated in the original text. One of the most famous writers in Greece, Penelopi Delta, sister of one of the most popular Greek nationalists Jonas Dragoumis, describing villagers in Edessa and Enidze-Vardar at the beginning of the last century in her book "Ta mystique tou valtou ", one of the most famous works of Greek literature, says:" These villagers have only Macedonian national consciousness. "
The "Historian" hides that in the census of 1920, under pressure from the international community, in the inventory list there was graph "Macedonian" as a separate language, and in the list were also mentioned separately, Serbian, Bulgarian, Vlach, and even Hebrew.
Census data for northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) were never published, but the inventory list can be seen on page 182 in the book that contains information about the census in Thessaly, which is located in the archives of the Library "Gennadios" in Athens.
Greeks did not begin to realize what was happening with the Macedonian issue through the diaspora in Australia, Canada, the US and Europe, Kofos said, but much earlier.
In past decades, to dozens, maybe hundreds of Macedonians origin of northern Greece, he was dening the Greek citizenship as they were members of the Macedonian associations, clubs and churches.
At the same time, all these our compatriots were declared "persona non grata" and even today are banned from entering Greece. Furthermore, "the historian" says that the issue has not been updated before the 90's and at that time northern Greece was not called Macedonia as "probably it was not so important at the time."
Identity fallen from God
What a contradiction! How is it that it does not matter when he said earlier that the Macedonian question for the Greeks was very important for their safety and security. The "Historian" still tells "stories" of Vergina and "Macedonian propaganda Byzantium," which, according to him ... Greeks considered "interference" in their cultural domain ... the "Historian" talks about the Greek identity as axiomatic. As it fell from Lord and was given to Greeks as absolute truth. He does not explain how he came to this perception, as he says, "our history and culture."
He does not explain with what right he uses the word "our"? Since when? How? Under what conditions? What is "our"? With what right? The problem is that in Greece it is not discussed at all what actually means national identity. There is deficit of knowledge about these topics in the public.
Greek citizens are inflated with the Greek version of historical events, even I would say with the Greek way of interpreting the historical science. For Greek "recruited historians" in Greek "national cause" goes the motto: If the data of historical facts do not go in our (political-national) benefit, then the history is responsible.
For Greek nationalism Macedonian issue is fear of creating a great "Macedonian mountain", adversary of already created "Greek mountain", it means against the Greek national myth about the origin, past and culture of the Greeks. Namely, since the foundation of the new Greek state in 1827 was supposed to be "offered" the citizens a sufficiently attractive past in order to achieve national homogenization. This went with ethnic cleansing of the population.
Greece was the first teacher of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Mostly through the educational system and other state structures were "planted" and are "plant" national consciousness, choosing the ancient Hellenic civilization as soil and creating the Greek national myth - that the Greeks are direct descendants of Pericles, Socrates and others who have built one Parthenon when other people lived like savages in caves.
This axiom is continuously recorded in all generations to the present day. Like any myth, and this is appealing to people. The question in the soul and mind of citizens is this: You want to be a "child" of Socrates and Pericles veins "child" of some wild uncivilized tribes and Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, Roma ...
But the myth of the Peloponnese had to expand the north country is named after the great historical weight - Macedonia. Because of the attractive past this space with the ancient Macedonians, Alexander the Great and the general ancient Macedonian history, appears in Greek nationalists fear of creating another myth - "Macedonian", which people may choose to own.
Therefore Greece in decades begins to flirt with the past, and "appropriated" that history as part of the Greek myth. For these reasons it is Greece has always opposed the creation of an independent Macedonian state. The fear is that in the future an independent Macedonian state will "radiate" with its Macedonianism as separate and different cultural and national point of the Balkans.
It is here where the problems with the Macedonian population in northern Greece. There is fear among Greek nationalists, lest future population in northern Greece choose "Macedonian" option instead of "Greek" when it comes to identity.
Why not do it when the Macedonian national myth and history with Alexander the Great and around him compete equally on the Greek myth and history? Greek nationalism sees danger of "United Macedonia" in the future. Of course, "historians" of the likes of Kofos never discuss these topics.
I would stress that I do not agree with the historical and ancient approach when it comes to modern national identities and condemn all megalomaniac and expansionist ideologies anywhere.
On the note that is happening to the safety of the citizens of Greece who lived in northern Greece, who spoke Macedonian language, language that is the same as speaking Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonius, the "historian" as we say in our dialect, "withdrew his word ". - No problem, they can now speak in that language now.
And they do. If you visit the villages in the area, you will see that they speak - he replies. A man can not be irritated by the response.
Imagine what is normally, speaking Macedonian between the Macedonian minority in Greece, the "historian" commenet as a great achievement.
According to the logic of shameless Kofos we should be grateful that we have the right to breathe. The "Historian" as does not know how to predict that international conventions on minority rights, and was an expert on these questions!? The answer can not make the neutral reader to consider what are the thoughts, ideology, principles and prejudices in Greek at political and social level when it comes to human and minority rights.
When an "intellectual" brings down to the level of "problem" the most basic need of a human being, to talk, to speak, to cry and mourn in their own native language, you can only imagine what had been and what are still pressures on the Macedonian minority in Greece.
And on the question to say how evaluates minority rights in northern Greece, the "historian" does not say a word about it, but again enters the interpretations on the use of the name and identity of the population. National identity of a nation is primarily a political issue. Culture, language, history and everything else is part of the political nature of the issue.
A the problem with the name of Macedonia and the Macedonian identity is not new at all. Greek political elite wants to present it like that, all the time repeating the famous view that "Tito created that republic and renamed Macedonia." The "Historian" becames a judge and evaluates how not to identify a person or a collectivity.
Even he renamed Macedonian as "Slavic". It seems he have not seen the inventory list of the Greek state in 1920, and calles himself "historian"! Nobody has the right to tell someone if he properly identified himself.
The question is whether is or it is not respected the specific identification. According to Kofos, "... in Greece if you say 'I am a Macedonian', especially before a Greek Macedonian, there is confusion.
People were never informed that in the past before 1940, the Greek state called "Macedonians" exactly these people who he describes as Greek citizens who speak "Slavic" language.
They're created the confusion, so they should solve it. Macedonians speaking Macedonian did not identify with the Republic of Macedonia. Kofos after so many years still can not understand that national minorities neither identify nor belonging to any neighboring country, but belong to the state whose citizens they are.
"They must identify themselves what they are " thinking they must be identified as "Slavs", not as Macedonians. The problem is that the state and Kofos should respect this identification, and do not do. He says that "the question that appeared to official recognition is that there is no clear identification of this group of majority Macedonians (Greek) who live in Greece. A as Macedonian is considered anyone from Greek Macedonia."
The "Historian" is still in confusion, in total confusion. It seems that he does not know or deliberately pretends not to know basic terms in the field of politics, anthropology and sociology. "historians" in Greece know the terms, rights and international conventions when they talk about the Greek minority in Turkey.
So it there is no clear identification, as he said, why not to propose inventory, so to see how will people identify themselves? It is really surprising that still Greek "historians", politicians, priests and bishops tend to be godparents. Macedonian question is not complex at all. Namely, fortunately or unfortunately, Macedonian nationalism appears a few decades later, when other Balkan nationalisms have already been developed, producing the respective nation states, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria.
When Macedonian nationalism appeared, Balkan states, having territorial aspirations, interests and appetites in the Macedonian region, refused and still refuse to recognize the Macedonian national identity, with the exception of Serbia. It is time to take action in own societies and states and citizens to sknow khow the only realistic option for future relations between the countries and people. They should understand that the Macedonian identity is a reality, not only as it is reflected in the statehood of the Republic of Macedonia, but also by members of the Macedonian minority in other countries.
We are willing to help in that direction. We, members of the "Rainbow", we have a solution to the confusion of Kofos, " we Macedonians and you Macedonians". If it bothers you, find a suffix or prefix, and here to facilitate your work, we'll choose a prefix or suffix that will differ us from you. So you will call us "ethnic Macedonians" and we will leave for you the term Macedonians.
There is another option - you can call us "Macedonians according to nation", which is also different, right? Then, the interlocutor, having no arguments starts with known positions ... But the past, history, culture, ancient Macedonians were Greeks, Macedonia is Greek, you are Slavs ... So we're saying, then, run away from the right of self-determination.
If it so, then with what right todays Greek people are named Greeks? Why not New Greek people/ Or Slav Greeks, Vlach Greeks, etc., because of cultural and linguistic point of view in these terms there is a basis for discussion. The Macedonian today, whether he is living in the Republic of Macedonia, Greece or another country because of the aggressiveness of Greek nationalism all these years, always in a defensive role is defending his identity.
Macedonian question is "Achilles heel" of the Greek policy of national homogeneity, because the Macedonian population in Greece as "the last of Mohicans" persistently refuses to fully assimilate and so to close the circle of national homogenization of modern New Greek nation.
On the other hand, Greek nationalism fears that if there is recognition of Macedonian national identity as different from the Greek, then Greek myth will start to collapse.
Zitat von Lubenica
und natürlich musst jetzt den ganzen schaß da zitieren für "geile quelle" oder was? versaust immer noch die ganzen threads mit deinem zitieren für nix.
Zitat von ZX 7R
Zitat von artemi
- - - Aktualisiert - - -
Diesen kaputten Thread kaputt machen......, Depp.
Von Mudi im Forum Diskussionen Griechenland vs. Mazedonien
Letzter Beitrag: 29.09.2014, 12:16
Von Burgas im Forum Diskussionen Griechenland vs. Mazedonien
Letzter Beitrag: 20.01.2013, 14:09
Von Burgas im Forum Politik
Letzter Beitrag: 08.07.2012, 17:44
Von Burgas im Forum Geschichte und Kultur
Letzter Beitrag: 24.04.2012, 21:15
Von Drobnjak im Forum Geschichte und Kultur
Letzter Beitrag: 03.11.2008, 18:02