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Makedonische Sprache im Mitelalter

Erstellt von Monkeydonian, 17.11.2010, 09:19 Uhr · 611 Antworten · 39.941 Aufrufe

  1. #581
    Avatar von Kalampakiotis

    Registriert seit
    04.05.2012
    Beiträge
    4.959
    adelfe = Bruder
    afenti = Chef, Boss
    ela na fame = komm wir essen
    afiseme na koimithoume = lass uns schlafen
    nacheis ygia = bleib gesund
    lagos = Hase
    zarkadi = Reh
    poulari = Fohlen
    mermingi = Ameise
    skouliki = Wurm
    agriogourno = Wildschwein
    geraki = Falke
    chilidona = Schwalbe
    perdikes = Wachteln
    gourouni = Schwein

    reicht das?

  2. #582
    Avatar von Zoran

    Registriert seit
    10.08.2011
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    27.745
    Zitat Zitat von Kalampakiotis Beitrag anzeigen
    adelfe = Bruder
    afenti = Chef, Boss
    ela na fame = komm wir essen
    afiseme na koimithoume = lass uns schlafen
    nacheis ygia = bleib gesund
    lagos = Hase
    zarkadi = Reh
    poulari = Fohlen
    mermingi = Ameise
    skouliki = Wurm
    agriogourno = Wildschwein
    geraki = Falke
    chilidona = Schwalbe
    perdikes = Wachteln
    gourouni = Schwein

    reicht das?

    Das ist die griechische Übersetzung.

    Brat - Makedonisch
    Adelfe - Griechisch
    Frere - Französisch.


    Somit liegt deine Einschätzung falsch das die makedonische Sprache ein griechischer Dialekt sei.


    Pozdrav

  3. #583
    Avatar von Kalampakiotis

    Registriert seit
    04.05.2012
    Beiträge
    4.959
    Und wie heisst Bruder auf kroatisch, serbisch oder bulgarisch?

  4. #584
    Avatar von Zoran

    Registriert seit
    10.08.2011
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    27.745
    Александар Македонски и цар Самуил зборувале ист јазик!?


    Во оваа исклучително интересна книга што се чува во НУБ „Св.Климент Охридски“, професор Винко Прибојевиќ, користејќи голем број цитати од грчки и латински писатели, тврди дека Македонците отсекогаш го зборувале јазикот којшто го зборувале и во 1525-та година, кога тој ја пишувал својата книга. Според него, Македонците живееле на овие простори и во 16-от век, како што живееле и во вековите што претходеле, објави МИА.





    Како исклучително учен човек за тоа време, одличен познавач на античката, класична историја е роден на островот Хвар, каде што завршил основно образование, Винко Пробојевиќ заминал најпрво на студии по теологија за подоцна да специјализира во Италија и да стане еден од најугледните професори по теологија во тоа време.

    Бидејќи бил добро упатен во историјата на Балканскиот полуостров, кој патем тој го нарекува Македонскиот полуостров, Прибојевиќ во својата книга користи голем број изворни податоци, кои ги собрал по тогашните библиотеки, архиви и доминикански манастири. Токму затоа во воведното обраќање до својот пријател Петар, Патрициј и заповедник на Галија, кој најверојатно го платил печатењето на книгата, меѓу другото бара книгата „да биде издадена за општа полза на сите, но без да се исфрлаат цитатите на писателите наведени паралелно со главниот текст отстрана“.

    И според цитатите, и според она што професорот го открил истражувајќи ја историјата, а врз основа на разликите во говорот меѓу Македонците и Грците, сосема е јасно дека Македонците никако не можат да бидат Грци, не знаат грчки, туку и тогаш, и секогаш, само својот мајчин, македонски јазик.

    Самиот Тукидид, ели Прибојевиќ во 1525-та година, кој ја пишува книгата, тврди дека „Македонија зафаќа простор од Византија, Тракија, Мизија и Илирија“, а „разликата меѓу Грците и Македонците веднаш се воочува од карактерот и начинот на живеење, а со таква спротивност во карактерите и обичаите не може да стане збор дека Грците и Македонците се ист народ“.

    Оттука, продолжува Прибојевиќ во својата книга од почетокот на 16-ти век, „кога атињанинот Диоскип требало да се пресмета во двобој со Македонецот Хорат, меѓу војниците на Александар, како што пренесува Квинт Курциј, Грците биле тие што го бодреле својот Диоскип.

    Зошто, вели Прибојевиќ, „ако Македонците биле Грци, грчките војници не го бодреле Македонецот Хорат, како што го бодреле Гркот Диоскип?“ Самиот Пробојевиќ поставува уште многу вакви прашања, користејќи изворни сведоштва што ги собрал истражувајќи за историјата на автохтоните народи на Македонскиот полуостров.


    Античките и средновековните Македонци зборувале ист јазик!?

    Во оваа исклучително интересна книга за Македонија и Македонците, професор Винко Прибојевиќ, користејќи голем број цитати од грчки и латински писатели, всушност потврдува дека Македонците отсекогаш го зборувале јазикот којшто го зборувале и таа 1525-та година кога тој ја пишува својата книга. Значи, според него, Македонците живееле на овие простори и во тоа време, во почеток на 16-от век, како што живееле и во вековите што претходеле.

    Ваквото тврдење на Прибојевиќ секако не и лежи на срце на македонската петта колона која тврди дека имало голема празнина, без Македонци, од времето на апостол Павле до книгата на Крсте Петков Мисирков во 1903-та година, односно дека Македонците исчезнале заедно со јазикот, обичаите, традицијата и својата историја. Дека тоа е обична измислица на оние што не се чувствуваат, и никогаш не се чувствувале Македонци, може да се види кај Прибојевиќ уште во 1525-та година, а не денес.

    Имено, тој тврди дека Македонците во тоа време, во времето во кое тој живеел, го зборувале 'истиот свој јазик каков што користеле и пред 1500 години, кога Грците не можеле да ги разберат што зборуваат па морало да се преведува'. Еве што вели професорот од Венеција од 16-ти век: „Затоа што некои писатели тврдат дека Македонците треба да се вбројуваат во Грци, како приговор изнесувам едно мислење на Квинт Курциј од неговата книга „Делата на Александар Велики“.

    Тој појасно од сонце го разликува македонскиот јазик од грчкиот, па како бел ден може да се види дека македонскиот говор никако не можела го разбере целата војска на Александар Велики, затоа што еден дел од неговата војска биле Грци. Така, кога на Македонецот Филота, син на Парменион, кој требало да се брани пред македонското Собрание, Александар му рекол: 'Филота, Македонците ќе ти изречат пресуда; те прашувам дали ќе им зборуваш на мајчин јазик', а тој рекол дека нема да зборува на мајчин јазик, затоа што сите нема да го разберат.

    Тогаш Александар веднаш додал дека Филота го мрази својот мајчин јазик“. Ако Македонците биле Грци, тогаш овој проблем воопшто не би бил проблем, зашто сите би зборувале грчки јазик. Фактот дека мајчиниот јазик на Македонците се разликувал од оној на Грците во војската на Александар Македонски, јасно покажува дека Македонците никогаш не се чувствувале Грци, бидејќи припадноста на еден народ, како што вели Прибојевиќ, најдобро се докажува со единственоста на јазикот, па „за припадници на еден народ ги сметаме оние кои уште од најрана доба заедно со мајчиното млеко го примаат истиот јазик“.

    Ако Македонците и Грците биле ист народ, смета Прибојевиќ, тогаш немало потреба Александар Велики да се нарекува крал на Македонците и Грците туку само крал на Грците. Значи, вели тој во својата книга стара пет века, бидејќи Македонците имаат свој јазик, а тој јазик не паднал од небо, јасно е дека тие отсекогаш па и денес, како што сведочи и големиот Филип од Бергамо, го имале истиот јазик што го говорат и сега.

    Ако е така во 1525-та година, кога е кажано и напишано од Прибојевиќ, тогаш сосема е веројатно дека Александар Македонски и цар Самуил зборувале ист јазик, оној што го зборувале Македонците отсекогаш. Според Прибојевиќ, Александар, Самуил и свети Климент, на пример, во 1525 година би се разбрале меѓу себе на својот мајчин јазик!


    Немало писатели кои верно би ги прикажале делата на Македонците!

    Според Прибојевиќ, „немало писатели кои верно би ги прикажале делата на Македонците“, па „голем дел од нивната најстара историја по Александар Македонски останала непозната“. Но, сепак, и оние податоци, кои, макар и против своја волја, како што вели, ги пружале другите автори, доволно јасно укажуваат на тоа дека ниту во воената слава, ниту во поседувањето на многу земји, подоцнежните таканаречени Словени не заостануваат зад ниту еден народ, туку, напротив, со своето славно потекло им заповедале на други народи.

    Записите на Јулиј Капитолин, Требелиј Полион, Флавиј Вописк, Секс Аурелиј Виктор, Еутропија, ѓакон Павле и многу други по нив, пишува Прибојевиќ, потврдуваат дека многу римски цареви и многу папи се таканаречени Словени. Но, кога и само накратко би ги раскажал нивните дела, вели тој, би морал да напишам многу томови. Притоа, вели професорот од Венеција, не можам молчејќи да поминат преку овие факти:„Кога битките биле на море или на копно, Словените секогаш или ги совладувале своите непријатели или во машка борба ја наоѓале својата смрт.

    Ништо кај нив не се смета пославно и подостоинствено од тоа да се победи или да се загине во јунашка борба. Затоа кога сакаат нешто да им веруваат, се колнат со зборовите "Да умрам веднаш, ако тоа не е така". Словените сметаат дека не е важно дали ќе загинат или ќе победат, доколку тргнат напред со својата желба за слава.

    Можеби е чудно, пишува Пробојевиќ, но сепак треба да се знае вистината дека дури и турскиот султан неверојатно многу ги ценел луѓето од македонско потекло, и затоа токму од нив ги именувал речиси сите главни команданти на војката, па така од нив формира силен одред од 20.000 луѓе за лична стража.

    Затоа, за жал, фактите зборуваат, особено во она наше несретно време, пишува Прибојевиќ во 1525-та годона, дека Отоманските окупатори, со помош на вакви одреди, совладуваат кралства, заземаат царстава, освојуваат утврдени градови и со сите сили настојуваат да го срушат римското царство и да ја сотрат вистинската вера.

    И не само Отоманската сега, туку и Малетачката република која била некогаш страв и трепет за своите непријатели, особено на море, најсилна била тогаш кога во своите редови имала словенски војници. Всушност, никој никогаш не видел овие народи, кои подоцна биле наречени Словени, да бидат млитави за борба или да веднат глава пред својот непријател“, завршува професорот Прибојевиќ.


    Римјаните измислуваа провинции само да го снема името Македонија!

    Во својата книга за Македонскиот полуостров и неговата историја, но онаа историја што не ја прекроиле или искривиле противниците на балканските народи, почнувајќи од антиката па сè до таа 1525-та година, кога ја пишувал книгата, Прибојевиќ изнесува стотици цитати и имиња на автори кои ги користи како извори за да ја поткрепи својата теза за прекинатата историја на народот кој на Балканскиот полуостров се доселил наводно дури во шестиот век.

    Според него, таканаречените Словени, се разбира под други имиња, отсекогаш биле тука, а преселбата е измислена само за да се поништи континиутетот на опстојувањето на древниот народ низ вековите. За Прибојевиќ, кој е роден на островот Хвар, сите поделби на овој дел од Европа биле правени само за да се поништи автохтоноста на народот што живеел на своите вековни огништа со илјадници години.

    Затоа тој тврди дека треба да се напушти старата поделба на покраини, која непријателите успеале да им ја врежат на таканаречените Словени, и повторно да се користи единствено точната и природна граница на народите што живеат, како што вели, на Македонскиот полуостров. Зборувајќи како Далматинец за Далмација, ја опишува и нејзината граница која на „запад оди до Истра, на исток граничи со Епир и Македонија, на север се простира до Босна и Хрватска, а на југ е Јадранското Море“.

    Тоа се границите кои отсекогаш биле природни граници на полуостровот и кои обичните луѓе на Хвар ги знаеле и во почетокот на 16-от век, како што вели Прибојевиќ. Иако Македонија како држава во тоа време не постоела, границите останале да се помнат како граници на Македонија. Интересно е тоа што Прибојевиќ никаде во својата книга не ја спомнува Бугарија и Бугарите како дел од таканаречените Словени на Македонскиот полуостров.

    Всушност, само на едно место има некаква асоцијација дека „целата земја до Црното Море е македонска земја која подоцна е прекрстувана со разни имиња за да се покрие трагот на вистината за Македонија“.


    Значајни факти за потиснатата Историја на Балканот

    Примерок од книгата на Винко Прибојевиќ, објавена во Венеција во 1532 година била пронајдена дури во 1922-та година од страна на академик Новак Грга, кој во 1951 година бил член на Југословенската академија на науките и уметностите во Загреб.

    Благодарејќи му нему во 1951 година книгата е објавена прв и последен пат двојазично, односно латинскиот оригинал што бил печатен во Венеција во 1532-та година и преводот на српско-хрватски јазик направен во 1951-та година. Интересно е тоа што Народната библиотека во Скопје книгата ја добила во 1952-та година, значи една година по објавувањето, а според печатите на првата страница нејзиното заведување преку ревизиии во библиотечниот фонд била правена три пати.

    Од печатите на книгата може да се види дека била пререгистрирана во 1957, во 1965 и во 2002-та година. Според академик Новак Грга делото на Винко Прибојевиќ во својата концепција и со своите ставови е од „епохална важност, затоа што открива значајни потиснати факти за славата на таканаречените Словени“ на Балканот. Оттука, смета тој, делото на Прибојевиќ е едно од најважните дела на балканската историографија и заслужува посебно место и во меѓународната историографија.

    За академик Грга, и покрај некои грешки во цитатите на старите автори, Прибојевиќ „без сомнение е многу добар познавач на класичната историја, а можел да користи и грчки и латински извори. Исто така, одлично ги познава и делата на светите апостоли, но и делата на Аристотел, Августин, Тома Аквински и други“, или, како што вели академикот Грга, тој е „многу учен човек кој вледеел со тогашната литература, ги познавал сите тогашни големи историски дела, кои не само што ги читал туку и внимателно ги проучивал“.

    Од друга страна, академикот на ЈАЗУ, кој напишал и предговор за изданието во 1951-та година, вели дека Прибојевиќ се служел и со сите тогашни енциклопедии, во прв ред со енциклопедиите на Калепин, Бергомас, Изидор и Бионд. Сето тоа, констатира академик Грга, го употребил во своето дело, кое така добива научна форма карактеристична за времето во кое ја пишувал својата книга, која, во првата фаза, всушност била говор што го одржал пред учените луѓе на Хвар.


    Папата наредил да се спали книгата што користела цитати од Прибојевиќ!

    Мошне интересно е тоа што Винко Прибојевиќ, односно неговата книга за Македонците, и нивната историја, која на латински јазик била отпечатена во 1532 година, извршила огромно влијание врз Мавро Орбини, кој ги прифатил неговите тези и во 1544 година во Рим објавил своја книга од ова област.

    За жал, книгата веднаш била забранета, а папата наредил да се спали до последниот примерок. Сепак, еден примерок најверојатно некако бил спасен, па делото на Орбини повторно е печатена во 1601 година, а во неа се разработени сите главни насоки од книгата на професор Винко Прибојевиќ.

    Во секој случај, како што вели академик Грга, Прибојевич бил голем патриот, кој прв ја изнел концепцијата за големината на Македонците, за народот на Македонскиот полуостров од антички времиња до средината на 16-ти век, настојувајќи тоа и научно да го докаже.

    Колку успеал во тоа, и колку оваа негова книга може да се смета за научна, треба да каже науката, а единствениот примерок од неа постои и се чува во НУБ Свети Климент Охридски, во Скопје.

    - - - Aktualisiert - - -

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  5. #585
    Avatar von Zoran

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    Übersetzung von dem Artikel über diesen Beitrag




    A book about the Greeks and the Macedonians, published in Venice in 1532 – Were Alexander the Great and Samuil the Emperor speaking the same language?

    Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:53 AM


    Skopje 22 May 2013
    In this very interesting book which is kept in the National Library “Saint Clement from Ohrid” Prof. Vinko Pribojevic, using a great number of quotes from Greek and Latin writers, claims that the Macedonians had always spoken the language they spoke in 1525, at the time of writing the book. According to him, the Macedonians lived in this region in the 16th century, as well as all the preceding centuries.
    Vinko Pribojevic was a very educated man for his time, a great connoisseur of the ancient, classic history. He was born on the island of Hvar, where he finished elementary school. He started studying theology and went on specialization in Italy and later became one of the most prominent theology professors at the time.
    As he knew the history of the Balkan Peninsula, which he called Macedonian Peninsula, very well, in his book Pribojevic used a great number of source information that he collected in libraries, archives and Dominican monasteries. That is why, in his introductory addressing to his friend Petar, Patrician and commander of Gaul, who probably paid the printing of the book, he asked that the book was “published for the benefit of all, without deleting the quotes from the writers that are noted parallel with the main text”.
    According to the quotes and what the professor discovered through his researches based on the differences in the speech between the Macedonians and the Greeks, it is very clear that there is no way that the Macedonians could be Greeks as they don’t know that language and have always known their own, Macedonian language.
    Pribojevic said in his book that Thucydides himself claimed that “Macedonia covers the areas from Byzantium, Thrace, Misia and Illyria” and “the difference between the Greeks and Macedonians can be seen immediately from their character and way of life and it is because of such an opposite in characters and customs it can be concluded that the Greeks and Macedonians are not the same people”.

    Did the ancient and medieval Macedonians speak the same language?
    In this very interesting book about Macedonia and the Macedonians, Prof. Vinko Pribojevic, using a great number of quotes from Greek and Latin writers, claims that the Macedonians had always spoken the language they spoke in 1525, at the time of writing the book. According to him, the Macedonians lived in this region in the 16th century, as well as all the preceding centuries.
    This claim by Pribojevic didn’t go well with the Macedonian fifth column, which claimed that there was a great gap without Macedonians – from the time of Paul the Apostle to the book by Krste Petkov Misirkov from 1903, meaning that the Macedonians disappeared along with their language, customs, tradition and history. Pribojevic’s book from 1525 is a proof that that notion was a lie made by those that never felt as Macedonians.
    He claims that at the time when he lived, the Macedonians spoke “the same language as they did 1500 years before that, when the Greeks could not understand them so a translation was necessary”. The professor from Venice from the 16th century said: “As an objection to the claim by some writers that the Macedonians should be considered Greeks, I would like to bring out an opinion by Quintus Curtius in his book “The work of Alexander the Great”.
    He could make a clear difference between the Macedonian and the Greek languages and it was also very clear that Alexander’s army could not understand the Macedonian speech because part of it was Greek. When Philota, son of Parmenion, had to defend himself in front of the Macedonian parliament, Alexander told him: “Philota, the Macedonians are going to pronounce a sentence; I want to know whether you will talk on your mother tongue” to which Philota said no because not everybody would be able to understand him.
    Then Alexander said that Philota hated his mother tongue. If the Macedonians were Greeks then this wouldn’t have been a problem because they would all speak the same language. The fact that the Macedonians’ mother tongue differed from the language spoken by the Greeks in Alexander’s army clearly indicates that the Macedonians never felt as Greeks because the affiliation of one nation is best proved with the uniqueness of the language, as Pribojevic said, so “we consider the people as members of a certain nation that took the mother tongue together with the mother’s milk from the earliest age”.
    If the Macedonians and the Greeks were the same people, then there was no need for Alexander the Great to call himself King of the Macedonians and the Greeks, but just King of the Greeks. In his five-century old book Pribojevic says that because the Macedonians have their own language, which didn’t just fall from the sky, it is clear that they have always spoken the same language.
    If that was true in 1525, when the book was written, then it is very probable that Alexander and Samuil spoke the same language. According to Pribojevic, Alexander, Samuil and Saint Clement would have no problem understanding each other in their mother tongue in 1525.


    Were there no writers to truly depict the deeds of the Macedonians?
    According to Pribojevic, “there were no writers to truly depict the deeds of the Macedonians”, so “a great part of their oldest history after Alexander the Great remained unknown”.
    There are many records that confirmed that many Roman emperors and Popes were called Slavs. Pribojevic said that it would take him a lot of volumes to write about their deeds while also saying that he couldn’t keep quiet about these facts: “When the battles were in the sea or on the land, the Slavs always overcame their opponents or died in battle.”
    He also wrote that even though it may be strange, but the truth was that the Turkish sultan had great respect for the Macedonian people, which is why nearly all main commanders of the army were Macedonians and he formed a strong squad made of 20.000 people as his personal guard.


    The Romans were making up provinces just to erase the name Macedonia!
    Pribojevic used hundreds of quotes and names of authors in his book as source to back up his thesis about the interrupted history of the people that allegedly settled in the Balkan Peninsula during the 6th century.
    According to him, the so-called Slavs have always been here, albeit under different names, and the move was made up simply to annul the continuity of the survival of the ancient nation through the centuries. To him, all the divisions in this part of Europe were made just to annul the autochthony of the people that lived in this region for thousands of years.
    Even though Macedonia didn’t exist as a country at the time, the borders were remembered as Macedonia’s borders. An interesting thing about Pribojevic’s book is that there is no mention of Bulgaria and the Bulgarians as part of the so-called Slavs on the Macedonian Peninsula.
    Actually, there is only one reference that “the whole land all the way to the Black Sea is a Macedonian land that was later named with different names to cover up the track of the truth about Macedonia”.
    Important facts about the suppressed History of the Balkan
    A sample of Vinko Pribojevic’s book was found in 1922 by the academician Novak Grga, who was a member of the Yugoslav Academy of Arts and Sciences in Zagreb in 1951. Thanks to him, the book was published for the first and last time in two languages – the Latin original that was published in Venice in 1532 and the translation to Serbo-Croatian from 1951. The National Library in Skopje got the book in 1952 and according to the stamps on the first page it was registered three times – 1957, 1965 and 2002 - through revisions of the library fund.
    According to academician Novak Grga, the work of Vinko Pribojevic in its conception and views is of “epochal importance because it discovers important suppressed facts about the glory of the so-called Slavs” on the Balkans. Therefore, Pribojevic’s work is one of the most important works of the Balkan historiography and deserves a special place in the international historiography.
    The Pope ordered the burning of the book that used Pribojevic’s quotes!
    What is very interesting is that Vinko Pribojevic and his book about the Macedonians and their history which was printed in 1532 had a great influence on Mauro Orbini, who accepted his theses and published his book in Rome in 1544.
    Unfortunately, the book was immediately forbidden and the Pope ordered to burn it to the last copy. However, one copy was somehow saved so Orbini’s work was re-published in 1601 and all main directions from the book of Pribojevis were elaborated in it.
    In any case, as Grga said, Pribojevic was a great patriot who was the first to set forth the conception about the greatness of the Macedonians and the people from the Macedonian Peninsula from the ancient time to mid-16th century, while also persisting on scientifically proving it.
    How much he succeeded and how much his book can be considered scientific is for the science to prove and the only copy of the book still exists in the National Library “Saint Clement of Ohrid” in Skopje.
    Blaze Minevski
    ###


  6. #586
    Avatar von Makedonec do Koska

    Registriert seit
    28.04.2012
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    The Ancient Macedonians and Their Language

    Labels: Antike, Geschichte, Sprache

    Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts

    In Greece today people start from assumption of the "Greek identity of Macedonia as an obvious historical fact". Identifying the Greeks from the ethnic and linguistic point of view with the ancient Macedonians, the current Greek regime accuses "Skopje" of encroaching upon the name Macedonia and on a part of a cultural heritage which belongs only to the Greeks. In fact this is nothing more than their conviction which for years now has been handed out to young people in Greek schools from their earliest years and, most recently, has been propagated throughout the entire world. The thesis of the "Greek identity of Macedonia" is not scientifically supportable. We shall concentrate here on the earliest period.


    In Greek scholarship, in numerous articles and books, the historical facts which go against the thesis of a "Greek Macedonia" are passed over. It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the Macedonians as their fellow-countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, allophyloi. This historical right and this "Greek identity of Macedonia" have for a long time been "proved" with the hypothesis that the ancient Macedonians were a Doric tribe and their language a Doric dialect. Since this could not be supported by definite facts from historical sources, and even less by archaeological or linguistic proofs, not long ago official Greek scholarship discarded this hypothesis. After the deciphering of Linear B in 1952, and more particularly after 1970. when the luxurious edition of The History of the Greek Ethnos' was published, Greek linguists and historians went far into the past to seek for foundations for their thesis of a "Greek Macedonia". Although none of the Mycenaean scholars in the world takes seriously their hypothetical interpretations of Mycenaean texts, they nevertheless wish to discover in them "proofs" that the ancient Macedonians were Indo-Europeans, Proto-Hellenes, and that their language was the oldest, purest and most conservative Greek dialect which at the same time cast a new light on the oldest history of the Greek ethnos. This thesis reached its culmination at the beginning of the 1980's when an unusual jubilee under the title of "4,000 Years of Greek Macedonia" was celebrated with great pomp. The theory thus constructed has pretensions to scholarship but in fact starts out from pre-suppositions which are not supported by a single historical fact.


    The history of the ancient Macedonians over a lengthy period of 1,600 years (2,200-600 B.C.) has been reconstructed on the basis of a prejudgement that they could have been nothing other than Greeks. It should be noted that no text whatsoever has been preserved in the ancient Macedonian language. Only about a hundred glosses are known, from which it is not possible to reconstruct the language. For more than 150 years these words have been a subject of comparative linguistic studies, but quite a large number of these remain with only a hypothetical explanation or even with no explanation at all. While earlier on Doric forms were being sought in the Macedonian glosses, Greek linguists are now investing great efforts in revealing archaic Aeolian. Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenaean parallels. In fact the sparse linguistic material is extremely complex and heterogeneous. It is clear that among the glosses there are borrowings from Greek which in antique times was a language of great prestige; the Greek words, however, have been adapted according to a different, non-Greek phonetic system, [e.g.: Macedonian and "sky", Greek aither "air"; Mac. danos, Gk. thanatos "death"; Mac. keb(a)]le Gk. kephale "head", etc.] But at the same time there are among the glosses such words as are not found in Greek but have parallels in other Indo-European languages, [e.g.: aliza "a white layer under the bark of a tree", Slavonic e/oa xa; Mac. goda "innards", Gk. entera, Old Indian Sanskrit gudam "intestine"; Mac. pella "stone", Germ. Fels < + pel-sa, etc.] As proof of the cognation of the ancient Macedonians with the Greeks a photograph has been presented of the inscription from Vergina with Greek names. It should be mentioned that the majority of the names of Macedonians from the ancient period are those of members of the ruling dynasty or the aristocracy who consciously identified with the sphere of Hellenic culture so that it is in no way strange that the names of the majority of them are Greek. But alongside them are to be found Macedonian names which cannot be explained by means of Greek etymology.


    With regard to their religion which, it is maintained, was the same as that of the Greeks, it should be borne in mind that the names of the divinities were translated into Greek in accordance with their functions, just as the names of the Greek divinities were altered by Roman authors writing in Latin: Jupiter in place of Zeus,-Minerva for Athena, Venus for Aphrodite, etc. From an analysis of the ancient Macedonian glosses it can be concluded that ancient Macedonian was an Indo-European language distinct from Greek. The well-known French Indo-European scholar A. Meje says that Greek is no closer to ancient Macedonian than is any other Indo-European language. In his classification of the Indo-European languages, J. Pokorny with complete justification puts Macedonian together with Phrygian in his Indo-European etymological dictionary. In support of the thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks it is stressed that Philip 11 and Alexander the Great not only behaved as Greeks but were incarnations of the idea of a united Greek state. The state which was ruled by Philip 11 and Alexander the Great, who subdued the Greek city-states and extended their frontiers to Central Asia, is nowhere called a Greek state. Educated by the great Greek philosopher Aristotle, Alexander highly valued classical Greek education and spread it to Central Asia. He abandoned, moreover, the dogma of the "difference" between Greeks and barbarians. He introduced into his policy a new spirit of the equality of all peoples, a spirit alien even to his teacher, who had prepared him for leadership of the Greeks and mastery of the barbarians. In accordance with his cosmopolitan ideology, Alexander showed an extraordinary broadmindedness both towards the Greeks and towards the other Balkan and Asiatic peoples. With this approach he laid the foundations of Hellenism too, which was a mixture of Greek philosophic and educational ideas with the cultural and religious understandings of the peoples of the east. Alexander spread Hellenism in the Greek language, which he considered to be the language of culture, but his mother tongue was not understood by the Greeks: a fact of which there are explicit proofs.")


    Greek scholarship passes over with an underestimation the historic fact of the migration of peoples which fundamentally redrew the ethnic map of Europe, and especially of the Balkans, during the early Byzantine period. Macedonia has been represented as a buffer protecting Hellenism from the waves of the barbarians throughout the centuries. The Slavonic element in Greece is either denied or minimized and it is well known that the Byzantine historian Constantine Porphyrogenitus openly says that the whole of Hellas had been Slavicized - It is likewise a known fact that the Slavonic tribes of the Ezerites and the Milingi were independent in the Peloponnese in the 7th and 8th centuries and did not pay tribute to Byzantium. If such facts are borne in mind, it is not difficult to understand whether Macedonia at that period was really a "bastion of Hellenism".


    There have been protests in Greece that we have not used toponyms from the Aegean part of Macedonia in the forms which were given to them by decree after 1913 and more especially in 1926 because this has called Greek sovereignty into question. Demelios Georgakas" notes that even today in the Peloponnese no matter in which direction one moves one cannot go three miles without encountering a Slavonic place-name. Similar statements have been made by Ph. Malingudis. If there are so many Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese, how many more are there in the Aegean part of Macedonia where the Slavonic tribes dwelt? And today Slavs have been living there for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian. During the period of Thucydides (11, 99) the population of Northern (Upper) Macedonia was distinguished from the Macedonian conquerors; but even those from Upper Macedonia were likewise called Macedonians. It is very unscholarly to speak of a homogenization of just one nation in these regions of the Balkans.


  7. #587

    Registriert seit
    12.09.2009
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    Zitat Zitat von Daywalker1979 Beitrag anzeigen
    The Ancient Macedonians and Their Language

    Labels: Antike, Geschichte, Sprache

    Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts

    In Greece today people start from assumption of the "Greek identity of Macedonia as an obvious historical fact". Identifying the Greeks from the ethnic and linguistic point of view with the ancient Macedonians, the current Greek regime accuses "Skopje" of encroaching upon the name Macedonia and on a part of a cultural heritage which belongs only to the Greeks. In fact this is nothing more than their conviction which for years now has been handed out to young people in Greek schools from their earliest years and, most recently, has been propagated throughout the entire world. The thesis of the "Greek identity of Macedonia" is not scientifically supportable. We shall concentrate here on the earliest period.


    In Greek scholarship, in numerous articles and books, the historical facts which go against the thesis of a "Greek Macedonia" are passed over. It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the Macedonians as their fellow-countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, allophyloi. This historical right and this "Greek identity of Macedonia" have for a long time been "proved" with the hypothesis that the ancient Macedonians were a Doric tribe and their language a Doric dialect. Since this could not be supported by definite facts from historical sources, and even less by archaeological or linguistic proofs, not long ago official Greek scholarship discarded this hypothesis. After the deciphering of Linear B in 1952, and more particularly after 1970. when the luxurious edition of The History of the Greek Ethnos' was published, Greek linguists and historians went far into the past to seek for foundations for their thesis of a "Greek Macedonia". Although none of the Mycenaean scholars in the world takes seriously their hypothetical interpretations of Mycenaean texts, they nevertheless wish to discover in them "proofs" that the ancient Macedonians were Indo-Europeans, Proto-Hellenes, and that their language was the oldest, purest and most conservative Greek dialect which at the same time cast a new light on the oldest history of the Greek ethnos. This thesis reached its culmination at the beginning of the 1980's when an unusual jubilee under the title of "4,000 Years of Greek Macedonia" was celebrated with great pomp. The theory thus constructed has pretensions to scholarship but in fact starts out from pre-suppositions which are not supported by a single historical fact.


    The history of the ancient Macedonians over a lengthy period of 1,600 years (2,200-600 B.C.) has been reconstructed on the basis of a prejudgement that they could have been nothing other than Greeks. It should be noted that no text whatsoever has been preserved in the ancient Macedonian language. Only about a hundred glosses are known, from which it is not possible to reconstruct the language. For more than 150 years these words have been a subject of comparative linguistic studies, but quite a large number of these remain with only a hypothetical explanation or even with no explanation at all. While earlier on Doric forms were being sought in the Macedonian glosses, Greek linguists are now investing great efforts in revealing archaic Aeolian. Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenaean parallels. In fact the sparse linguistic material is extremely complex and heterogeneous. It is clear that among the glosses there are borrowings from Greek which in antique times was a language of great prestige; the Greek words, however, have been adapted according to a different, non-Greek phonetic system, [e.g.: Macedonian and "sky", Greek aither "air"; Mac. danos, Gk. thanatos "death"; Mac. keb(a)]le Gk. kephale "head", etc.] But at the same time there are among the glosses such words as are not found in Greek but have parallels in other Indo-European languages, [e.g.: aliza "a white layer under the bark of a tree", Slavonic e/oa xa; Mac. goda "innards", Gk. entera, Old Indian Sanskrit gudam "intestine"; Mac. pella "stone", Germ. Fels < + pel-sa, etc.] As proof of the cognation of the ancient Macedonians with the Greeks a photograph has been presented of the inscription from Vergina with Greek names. It should be mentioned that the majority of the names of Macedonians from the ancient period are those of members of the ruling dynasty or the aristocracy who consciously identified with the sphere of Hellenic culture so that it is in no way strange that the names of the majority of them are Greek. But alongside them are to be found Macedonian names which cannot be explained by means of Greek etymology.


    With regard to their religion which, it is maintained, was the same as that of the Greeks, it should be borne in mind that the names of the divinities were translated into Greek in accordance with their functions, just as the names of the Greek divinities were altered by Roman authors writing in Latin: Jupiter in place of Zeus,-Minerva for Athena, Venus for Aphrodite, etc. From an analysis of the ancient Macedonian glosses it can be concluded that ancient Macedonian was an Indo-European language distinct from Greek. The well-known French Indo-European scholar A. Meje says that Greek is no closer to ancient Macedonian than is any other Indo-European language. In his classification of the Indo-European languages, J. Pokorny with complete justification puts Macedonian together with Phrygian in his Indo-European etymological dictionary. In support of the thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks it is stressed that Philip 11 and Alexander the Great not only behaved as Greeks but were incarnations of the idea of a united Greek state. The state which was ruled by Philip 11 and Alexander the Great, who subdued the Greek city-states and extended their frontiers to Central Asia, is nowhere called a Greek state. Educated by the great Greek philosopher Aristotle, Alexander highly valued classical Greek education and spread it to Central Asia. He abandoned, moreover, the dogma of the "difference" between Greeks and barbarians. He introduced into his policy a new spirit of the equality of all peoples, a spirit alien even to his teacher, who had prepared him for leadership of the Greeks and mastery of the barbarians. In accordance with his cosmopolitan ideology, Alexander showed an extraordinary broadmindedness both towards the Greeks and towards the other Balkan and Asiatic peoples. With this approach he laid the foundations of Hellenism too, which was a mixture of Greek philosophic and educational ideas with the cultural and religious understandings of the peoples of the east. Alexander spread Hellenism in the Greek language, which he considered to be the language of culture, but his mother tongue was not understood by the Greeks: a fact of which there are explicit proofs.")


    Greek scholarship passes over with an underestimation the historic fact of the migration of peoples which fundamentally redrew the ethnic map of Europe, and especially of the Balkans, during the early Byzantine period. Macedonia has been represented as a buffer protecting Hellenism from the waves of the barbarians throughout the centuries. The Slavonic element in Greece is either denied or minimized and it is well known that the Byzantine historian Constantine Porphyrogenitus openly says that the whole of Hellas had been Slavicized - It is likewise a known fact that the Slavonic tribes of the Ezerites and the Milingi were independent in the Peloponnese in the 7th and 8th centuries and did not pay tribute to Byzantium. If such facts are borne in mind, it is not difficult to understand whether Macedonia at that period was really a "bastion of Hellenism".


    There have been protests in Greece that we have not used toponyms from the Aegean part of Macedonia in the forms which were given to them by decree after 1913 and more especially in 1926 because this has called Greek sovereignty into question. Demelios Georgakas" notes that even today in the Peloponnese no matter in which direction one moves one cannot go three miles without encountering a Slavonic place-name. Similar statements have been made by Ph. Malingudis. If there are so many Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese, how many more are there in the Aegean part of Macedonia where the Slavonic tribes dwelt? And today Slavs have been living there for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian. During the period of Thucydides (11, 99) the population of Northern (Upper) Macedonia was distinguished from the Macedonian conquerors; but even those from Upper Macedonia were likewise called Macedonians. It is very unscholarly to speak of a homogenization of just one nation in these regions of the Balkans.

    kannst dir die Artikel sparen hier rein zu posten, da jeder Grieche der was dazu sagt hier gleich mit einer Verwarnung belohnt wird..

    wieso gründet Ihr nicht einfach eine Interessengemeinschaft oder so? Da könnt Ihr ganz alleine, unter Euch trollen...

  8. #588
    Avatar von Zoran

    Registriert seit
    10.08.2011
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    27.745
    Zitat Zitat von NickTheGreat Beitrag anzeigen
    kannst dir die Artikel sparen hier rein zu posten, da jeder Grieche der was dazu sagt hier gleich mit einer Verwarnung belohnt wird..

    wieso gründet Ihr nicht einfach eine Interessengemeinschaft oder so? Da könnt Ihr ganz alleine, unter Euch trollen...

    Schwachsinn, nur jeder Grieche der sich nicht artikulieren kann, oder sagen wir in die "Diskussion einbinden kann" - damit du es auch verstehst.

    Pozdrav

  9. #589
    Avatar von Heraclius

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    01.01.2011
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    Zitat Zitat von Daywalker1979 Beitrag anzeigen
    The Ancient Macedonians and Their Language

    Labels: Antike, Geschichte, Sprache

    Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts

    In Greece today people start from assumption of the "Greek identity of Macedonia as an obvious historical fact". Identifying the Greeks from the ethnic and linguistic point of view with the ancient Macedonians, the current Greek regime accuses "Skopje" of encroaching upon the name Macedonia and on a part of a cultural heritage which belongs only to the Greeks. In fact this is nothing more than their conviction which for years now has been handed out to young people in Greek schools from their earliest years and, most recently, has been propagated throughout the entire world. The thesis of the "Greek identity of Macedonia" is not scientifically supportable. We shall concentrate here on the earliest period.


    In Greek scholarship, in numerous articles and books, the historical facts which go against the thesis of a "Greek Macedonia" are passed over. It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the Macedonians as their fellow-countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, allophyloi. This historical right and this "Greek identity of Macedonia" have for a long time been "proved" with the hypothesis that the ancient Macedonians were a Doric tribe and their language a Doric dialect. Since this could not be supported by definite facts from historical sources, and even less by archaeological or linguistic proofs, not long ago official Greek scholarship discarded this hypothesis. After the deciphering of Linear B in 1952, and more particularly after 1970. when the luxurious edition of The History of the Greek Ethnos' was published, Greek linguists and historians went far into the past to seek for foundations for their thesis of a "Greek Macedonia". Although none of the Mycenaean scholars in the world takes seriously their hypothetical interpretations of Mycenaean texts, they nevertheless wish to discover in them "proofs" that the ancient Macedonians were Indo-Europeans, Proto-Hellenes, and that their language was the oldest, purest and most conservative Greek dialect which at the same time cast a new light on the oldest history of the Greek ethnos. This thesis reached its culmination at the beginning of the 1980's when an unusual jubilee under the title of "4,000 Years of Greek Macedonia" was celebrated with great pomp. The theory thus constructed has pretensions to scholarship but in fact starts out from pre-suppositions which are not supported by a single historical fact.


    The history of the ancient Macedonians over a lengthy period of 1,600 years (2,200-600 B.C.) has been reconstructed on the basis of a prejudgement that they could have been nothing other than Greeks. It should be noted that no text whatsoever has been preserved in the ancient Macedonian language. Only about a hundred glosses are known, from which it is not possible to reconstruct the language. For more than 150 years these words have been a subject of comparative linguistic studies, but quite a large number of these remain with only a hypothetical explanation or even with no explanation at all. While earlier on Doric forms were being sought in the Macedonian glosses, Greek linguists are now investing great efforts in revealing archaic Aeolian. Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenaean parallels. In fact the sparse linguistic material is extremely complex and heterogeneous. It is clear that among the glosses there are borrowings from Greek which in antique times was a language of great prestige; the Greek words, however, have been adapted according to a different, non-Greek phonetic system, [e.g.: Macedonian and "sky", Greek aither "air"; Mac. danos, Gk. thanatos "death"; Mac. keb(a)]le Gk. kephale "head", etc.] But at the same time there are among the glosses such words as are not found in Greek but have parallels in other Indo-European languages, [e.g.: aliza "a white layer under the bark of a tree", Slavonic e/oa xa; Mac. goda "innards", Gk. entera, Old Indian Sanskrit gudam "intestine"; Mac. pella "stone", Germ. Fels < + pel-sa, etc.] As proof of the cognation of the ancient Macedonians with the Greeks a photograph has been presented of the inscription from Vergina with Greek names. It should be mentioned that the majority of the names of Macedonians from the ancient period are those of members of the ruling dynasty or the aristocracy who consciously identified with the sphere of Hellenic culture so that it is in no way strange that the names of the majority of them are Greek. But alongside them are to be found Macedonian names which cannot be explained by means of Greek etymology.


    With regard to their religion which, it is maintained, was the same as that of the Greeks, it should be borne in mind that the names of the divinities were translated into Greek in accordance with their functions, just as the names of the Greek divinities were altered by Roman authors writing in Latin: Jupiter in place of Zeus,-Minerva for Athena, Venus for Aphrodite, etc. From an analysis of the ancient Macedonian glosses it can be concluded that ancient Macedonian was an Indo-European language distinct from Greek. The well-known French Indo-European scholar A. Meje says that Greek is no closer to ancient Macedonian than is any other Indo-European language. In his classification of the Indo-European languages, J. Pokorny with complete justification puts Macedonian together with Phrygian in his Indo-European etymological dictionary. In support of the thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks it is stressed that Philip 11 and Alexander the Great not only behaved as Greeks but were incarnations of the idea of a united Greek state. The state which was ruled by Philip 11 and Alexander the Great, who subdued the Greek city-states and extended their frontiers to Central Asia, is nowhere called a Greek state. Educated by the great Greek philosopher Aristotle, Alexander highly valued classical Greek education and spread it to Central Asia. He abandoned, moreover, the dogma of the "difference" between Greeks and barbarians. He introduced into his policy a new spirit of the equality of all peoples, a spirit alien even to his teacher, who had prepared him for leadership of the Greeks and mastery of the barbarians. In accordance with his cosmopolitan ideology, Alexander showed an extraordinary broadmindedness both towards the Greeks and towards the other Balkan and Asiatic peoples. With this approach he laid the foundations of Hellenism too, which was a mixture of Greek philosophic and educational ideas with the cultural and religious understandings of the peoples of the east. Alexander spread Hellenism in the Greek language, which he considered to be the language of culture, but his mother tongue was not understood by the Greeks: a fact of which there are explicit proofs.")


    Greek scholarship passes over with an underestimation the historic fact of the migration of peoples which fundamentally redrew the ethnic map of Europe, and especially of the Balkans, during the early Byzantine period. Macedonia has been represented as a buffer protecting Hellenism from the waves of the barbarians throughout the centuries. The Slavonic element in Greece is either denied or minimized and it is well known that the Byzantine historian Constantine Porphyrogenitus openly says that the whole of Hellas had been Slavicized - It is likewise a known fact that the Slavonic tribes of the Ezerites and the Milingi were independent in the Peloponnese in the 7th and 8th centuries and did not pay tribute to Byzantium. If such facts are borne in mind, it is not difficult to understand whether Macedonia at that period was really a "bastion of Hellenism".


    There have been protests in Greece that we have not used toponyms from the Aegean part of Macedonia in the forms which were given to them by decree after 1913 and more especially in 1926 because this has called Greek sovereignty into question. Demelios Georgakas" notes that even today in the Peloponnese no matter in which direction one moves one cannot go three miles without encountering a Slavonic place-name. Similar statements have been made by Ph. Malingudis. If there are so many Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese, how many more are there in the Aegean part of Macedonia where the Slavonic tribes dwelt? And today Slavs have been living there for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian. During the period of Thucydides (11, 99) the population of Northern (Upper) Macedonia was distinguished from the Macedonian conquerors; but even those from Upper Macedonia were likewise called Macedonians. It is very unscholarly to speak of a homogenization of just one nation in these regions of the Balkans.





    Zoranski, wo lag in der Antike schon wieder dieses ominöse "Upper Macedonia"? Glaube die Antwort warst du mir hier noch schuldig.

    Leute, muss schon hart sein, wenn das eigene Volk noch keine 70 Jahre existiert, und das eigene Land noch keine 30. Bis zu den Balkankriegen und Jugoslawien noch wackere Bulgaren, seit der Unabhängigkeit 1991 und spätestens seit Gruewski plötzlich "antik". Es sind aus der Antike im makedonischen Raum reihenweise Schriftzeugnisse in Attisch und in einem "dorischen Dialekt" bezeugt. Dafür keine Schriftdenkmäler in Ostsüdslawisch (ich sage jetzt absichtlich nicht Bulgarisch ), das sollte man noch erwähnen.


    Heraclius

  10. #590
    Avatar von Afro

    Registriert seit
    30.03.2013
    Beiträge
    4.871
    boa ei hab die Nasse voll langsam .
    eins kann ich euch sagen ,der Name und das Land Mazedonien wirt es bald nicht
    mehr geben.
    Bald wirt es Griechenland heißen.
    Und ihr werdet alle nach Türkei und norden auswandern.
    soviel zu diesem Thema.

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